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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 76 of 263 (322281)
06-16-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by mike the wiz
06-16-2006 11:42 AM


Re: Back to school boys
All of these universal laws and components that JUST HAPPEN to be perfect, need to be answered for.

Why?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 78 of 263 (322298)
06-16-2006 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by NosyNed
06-16-2006 1:08 PM


Ask why.
He's also forgetting that puddle who is so terribly excited about how well designed the hole is. How amazingly well it fits him.

Exactly. If the conditions were different would some other entity be asking the same questions?

I am reminded of one of my favorite Escher prints.

What were the odds that the puddle would be located exactly where it had to be to capture the pine cones and those bicycle tire tracks and that two different people would walk along the same path or that not one but two cars would wander through that same spot.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 102 of 263 (762533)
07-13-2015 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
07-12-2015 6:49 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

Intelligent design makes much better sense than random design. The whole idea of we humans being the "winner of a cosmic lottery" is so much nonsense.

Now that is just a really silly statement that makes God look pretty stupid. You seem to like making God look either stupid or evil or more often, both.

How are humans any greater winners of some cosmic lottery than cockroaches or pond scum?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 126 of 263 (787664)
07-20-2016 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
07-20-2016 12:33 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

the whole point is this: His imagination is reality. There is no probability involved. Is that arrogant to state? To me it is even more arrogant for people to claim that random sequences of events produced Cosmological creation by chance. It shows that people value randomness more than belief in certainty.

Word salad Phat.

What it really shows is that people value evidence over belief. A belief, no matter how certain someone holds it should change we evidence refutes it and no belief should never be held as certain.

Phat writes:

Would you dismiss God as unknown? (apart from the character of legend and mythos)

Until such time as there is sufficient evidence to support the actual existence of God then you should at least admit it is only a belief and not a certainty.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 12:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 4:09 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 127 of 263 (787665)
07-20-2016 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
07-20-2016 1:30 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

well...you have a point. But tell me...are these types of unsupported assertions the mark of arrogance simply for valuing faith over evidence?

I would not call it arrogance but simply foolishness.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 131 of 263 (787690)
07-20-2016 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
07-20-2016 4:09 PM


Re: Reality 101
Phat writes:

We get it. In your opinion the concept of belief in general is irrational. I believe differently. I believe that belief is stronger than evidence.

You mention this to be akin to foolishness. While I admit that many of the CCOI need a good dose of critical thinking and a healthy understanding of reality, I also believe we all could be wrong about what reality actually is.

And is there any evidence that reality might be different than it actually is?

And is there any reason that belief should be stronger than evidence?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 148 of 263 (787857)
07-22-2016 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
07-22-2016 5:54 PM


Re: Ask why.
Phat writes:

jar writes:

What were the odds that the puddle would be located exactly where it had to be to capture the pine cones and those bicycle tire tracks and that two different people would walk along the same path or that not one but two cars would wander through that same spot.

Thats my point. There are no odds.
To wit:

Phat writes:

Intelligent design makes much better sense than random design. The whole idea of we humans being the "winner of a cosmic lottery" is so much nonsense.


jar writes:

Now that is just a really silly statement that makes God look pretty stupid. You seem to like making God look either stupid or evil or more often, both.
How are humans any greater winners of some cosmic lottery than cockroaches or pond scum?

Again, my point is that there was no cosmic lottery.

Are you asserting that humans are no more special than cockroaches or pond scum? Did God so love the pond that He sent His only begotten scum?
Did God send a cockroach born of a virgin to fight the evil Black Flag Empire?

Yes, I am asserting that humans are no more special than cockroaches and certainly nowhere near as successful as a species.

Humans wrote the story about God sending his son and so the story is human centric.

Further it seems that you totally missed the import of the story about the Lithograph. Just like the Bible Stories, the picture was created to market to humans and so was made human centric.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 151 of 263 (787861)
07-22-2016 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
07-22-2016 6:57 PM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
Phat writes:

Why shouldnt humans be special? We are, after all, the only species to have built all this stuff. No other species comes close...unless you think beaver dams are as amazing as skyscrapers and supercomputers.

It has nothing to do with whether or not humans should be special; all things are special. Cockroaches have been around long before humans existed and will be around long after humans have ceased to exist. And yes, actually I think beaver dams are more amazing than skyscrapers. You try building a beaver dam with just your teeth and no tools.

Phat writes:

Did they make the story up or did they write about an event that happened? Why do you believe in the Nicene Creed if the whole idea is simply a story spun by a campfire on a cold night? If the story has value, would it not testify to human imagination versus an actual Creator of all seen and unseen?

Of course they made the story up and all of the evidence supports that conclusion. There is a reason none of the accounts are the same and that the earliest accounts don't speak of that at all.

Phat writes:

why is evidence held in higher regard than faith?

I can't believe you even asked that. Evidence and the existence of evidence can be confirmed regardless of anyone's belief system. Evidence can be tested against logic, reason and reality.

Faith though is irrational, unreasonable, illogical and not testable except to the extent you can possibly test to see if someone really believes something. You cannot test whether faith is actually justified.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 161 of 263 (788402)
07-31-2016 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
07-31-2016 7:48 AM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
Phat writes:

My point is that you cant calculate probability on cosmic events.

Come on Phat.

You cannot seriously think that.

Do scientists not calculate the probability of a given asteroid or comet hitting the earth; the probability of meteor showers over a given location and period of time; of accurately reaching a given cosmic object ...


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 163 of 263 (788406)
07-31-2016 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
07-31-2016 10:16 AM


Re: When Precisely Was Once Upon A Time?
Phat writes:

Sure, but these are not macro cosmological events. Do they calculate when a super nova will erupt?
Do they calculate the speed of the Big Bang Expansion?
Do they have any way to calculate at what point in time The Bang occurred?

Yes, including when our own sun will expand and destroy the Earth.

Yes, they have calculated the speed of the Big Bang Expansion and even the speed of the current universal expansion.

Yes, they have calculated at what point of time the Big Bang happened.

Phat writes:

Or is "15 billion years ago" little more than a guess?

15 Billion years is far more than a guess.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 248 of 263 (861493)
08-22-2019 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by FLRW
08-22-2019 10:59 AM


Yet what we see is at best ******** design, inept design and design humans have been having to fix for hundreds if not millions of years.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 252 of 263 (861529)
08-22-2019 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by AZPaul3
08-22-2019 12:28 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Sproul does like his own voice. I bet he gets paid not just by the word but by the syllable. He has yet to find anything simple that he cannot make complex and inscrutable. Not word salad but rather the Salad Bar.

Edited by jar, : hit wrong key


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 257 of 263 (861593)
08-23-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
08-23-2019 12:08 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

You say that God lied. I say that the answer surely *must* be deeper, since we already know that God cannot lie nor would have any need to lie.

Phat, stop continuously misrepresenting what I say.

It is not what I say, it is what is actually written in the Bible story. The Bible says God lied. The God character in the story says that the serpent told the truth.

You don't seem to like reality but that is what is actually written in the Bible.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 08-23-2019 12:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 08-23-2019 2:59 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 259 of 263 (861603)
08-23-2019 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Phat
08-23-2019 2:59 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

Oh stop with your Faith display of Capital Letters!

Then stop lying about what I have said.

Phat writes:

And the serpant did not tell us the whole truth. We became "like God" or like one of us...only in that we became aware of the difference between good and evil.

Yet the story still says that the God lied and the serpent told the truth.

Phat writes:

It is patently ridiculous for any created thing to become "like God".

Perhaps it is beyond your imagination but the evidence shows it was not ridiculous to the author of the story.

Phat writes:

It is evident, however, that in today's world there are many imitative spirits, or vibes, or traits that mimic Jesus Christ yet are far from Him.

Yet no one ever presents evidence that supports such an assertion.

Phat writes:

God Himself may hollar from some mountain to stop misrepresenting Him. You, on the other hand, have no such authority.

Then when God does hollar from some mountain to stop misrepresenting Him I will be happy to discuss the issue with him.

But I do have the authority to continue to point out when you repeatedly misrepresent what I say.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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