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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 95 of 263 (762158)
07-09-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Stile
07-09-2015 9:29 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Stile writes:

I've never thought that chance is an actual thing causing things to happen.
Can you indicate any group of people that do follow such a strange idea?


Reminds me of ICANT and the "existence of existence". What are the chances that chance exists?

It's the kind of philosophical mumbo-jumbo that mike the wiz loves and Phat phalls phor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Stile, posted 07-09-2015 9:29 AM Stile has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 11:20 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 107 of 263 (787578)
07-18-2016 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
07-17-2016 8:39 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

Their basic premise is that chance is logical only when verified by probability.


What are the chances of rolling a six? What's the probability of rolling a six?

What's the difference?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 07-17-2016 8:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 116 of 263 (787615)
07-19-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
07-18-2016 1:13 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

Its when we throw phrases out there like "The universe evolved (or came into being) by chance.


We don't throw out phrases like that.

Phat writes:

...chance simply represents an unknown probability.


If the probability is unknown, how can you dismiss it as "impossible"?

Edited by ringo, : Corrected quote.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 07-19-2016 7:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 128 of 263 (787680)
07-20-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
07-19-2016 7:12 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

Because if there was even the slightest possibility of chance, God would be an anachronism.


God is an anachronism. He has been ever since we started looking for the real answers to our questions. It has nothing to do with chance. Even if God does exist, He isn't the answer to anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 07-19-2016 7:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 3:39 PM ringo has replied
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 11:35 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 132 of 263 (787754)
07-21-2016 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
07-20-2016 3:39 PM


Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
Phat writes:

This must be your belief.


Lack of belief is not a belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 3:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 07-21-2016 7:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 139 of 263 (787814)
07-22-2016 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
07-21-2016 7:12 PM


Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
Phat writes:

Whats the old saying? Seeing Is Believing....


So why do you believe in God when you don't see Him?

The bizarre claim that God hides so that we have to have faith in Him goes contrary to the old saying.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 07-21-2016 7:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 141 of 263 (787821)
07-22-2016 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
07-22-2016 12:26 PM


Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
Phat writes:

If Jesus thinks it is blessed to believe without seeing, who am I to argue with Him?


The story of Thomas does not support your point. Jesus showed Thomas the evidence. If those who believe without evidence are also blessed, that is not a case of "seeing is believing". You'll have to look for another "old saying" to support blind belief.

Phat writes:

Unless you throw the silly argument at me that the redactor is telling us what Jesus said!


Why is that a silly argument? What reason do you have to think that Jesus' words were written down with perfect accuracy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:53 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 143 of 263 (787828)
07-22-2016 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Phat
07-22-2016 12:53 PM


Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
Phat writes:

If God wanted us to see evidence, he would have.


He did. Jesus showed Thomas.

Phat writes:

The Bible never suggests that without evidence it is impossible to please God. It rather suggests that without Faith it is impossible to please God.


What Jesus said flat out - not "suggested" - was that the way to please God is to feed the hungry, etc. Apparently that is what He meant by having faith.

Phat writes:

I suppose my argument is that there is no chance that God exists nor is there a chance that God exists. God exists, period. The argument of necessary certainty.


Word salad has a lot of fiber in it; it goes right through you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:53 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 156 of 263 (787900)
07-23-2016 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
07-22-2016 6:51 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

People by nature don't want God to exist.


Does the Pope wish there was no God but since there is he might as well get on His good side?

You seem to have a very low opinion of faith - and of a god who would be fooled by people who don't want to believe in him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 6:51 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 172 of 263 (849294)
03-04-2019 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Phat
03-04-2019 11:20 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

Read my link in the last post and tell me what comes to mind comparing that philosophy to classic scripture.


I didn't read the whole thing. One comment that made me cringe was, "Life itself has climbed a ladder of chaos to reach new heights of order." Really? And he keeps on digging the hole: "Genes are not “supposed” to mutate. They are supposed to perfectly replicate themselves in a predictable manner." If he doesn't know the first thing about chemistry, he shouldn't write about it.

So, instead of hoping that I'll see what you see, why don't you tell us how it contrasts with classic scripture.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 11:20 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 11:49 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 173 of 263 (849295)
03-04-2019 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
03-04-2019 11:35 AM


Re: Satan as author of Chaos
Phat writes:

My argument is essentially that scripture provides rational "old order" answers that chaos theory and human reasoning have been trying to overthrow ever since the snake whispered in Eves' ear.


So you've given up on throwing scripture out the window?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 11:35 AM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 179 of 263 (849303)
03-04-2019 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Phat
03-04-2019 11:49 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

I was hoping that your encyclopedic knowledge of scripture would provide you an opportunity to refute your original proclamation that God was an anachronism.


Whatever knowledge of scripture I have is based on many years of hearing it on an almost daily basis. Reading one article isn't likely to have much of an impact.

The only thing I said in this thread about God being an anachronism was in Message 128:

quote:
God is an anachronism. He has been ever since we started looking for the real answers to our questions. It has nothing to do with chance. Even if God does exist, He isn't the answer to anything.
I stand by that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 11:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 12:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 181 of 263 (849305)
03-04-2019 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
03-04-2019 12:15 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

The authors of scripture, though derided as "Bronze Age Goatherders", stated some profound assertions regarding life experience and human nature.


There is wisdom that comes with life experience and has nothing to do with any belief system.

Phat writes:

I need to get ready for work but will continue forming some sort of arguments regarding certainty vs probability and good being the highest ideal vs chaos and order/disorder yin/yang type of thinking ...


I think you're making a fundamental error in trying to equate Satan with chaos and God with order.

Phat writes:

...which I believe to be one of the social ideas that undermined Christian absolutism.


I don't think it was any external ideas that caused the decline and fall of Christianity. I think it collapsed from its own weight and structural weaknesses.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 12:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 12:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 183 of 263 (849307)
03-04-2019 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Phat
03-04-2019 12:29 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

Here are the basic arguments that support rational secular thinking, regarding RC Sprouls book (and my sig quote)


The review starts out, "This truly dreadful book...."

Which side are we on?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 12:29 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 208 of 263 (851321)
04-22-2019 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by dwise1
04-22-2019 11:12 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
dwise1 writes:

My mother's mother gave birth six times, but only two children survived. That was in the USA in the early 20th Century.


It seems like our generation and our parents' generation were the only ones where large families were common. My grandfather had twelve children but several of his siblings died in childhood. His children had an average of four children each.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2019 11:12 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2019 3:15 PM ringo has seen this message

  
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