Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9049 total)
68 online now:
PaulK, Tangle (2 members, 66 visitors)
Newest Member: Wes johnson
Upcoming Birthdays: DrJones*
Post Volume: Total: 887,622 Year: 5,268/14,102 Month: 189/677 Week: 48/26 Day: 0/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
ikabod
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 26 of 263 (318202)
06-06-2006 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by GDR
06-06-2006 2:08 AM


Chance does not need a oppertunity to be a possiblity ..
its always there ..

if you have nothing then the chance of there being a blue fish is 0% ..
the chance of there being nothing is 100%....

if the universe was just planet earth the the change of finding a blue fish 100% ( i know i have seen blue fishes )
the chance of there being nothing is 0%

Also chance is time locked .. .. the chance of England winning the world cup in 1966 is 100% ( cos its happened ) the chance os winnining in 1970 is 0% ,the chance in 2006 is hmm%

at time= "now" we can make a good chance calulation
at time="future" wecan make a chance calultaion but there are more uncertain factors( chances) so our calulation is less certain .
at time ="past<50 years" ( assuming we know our history accuratly) chance are fixed .
at time ="past>50years" our chance calutaion are dependant on how well explored the event is historically

no as to the chance of the universe satrting .. we do not know the condistions and so we can not calulate the chance ..

for all we know "nothing" is very unstable and the chance of a " big bang " event is 0.000000000000000000001%
But as we do not know the physical laws that govern nothing we can not predict .
But given that we are here we can say that the universe did start and the chance of the universe starting and producing us is 100% .. cos its happened ..

you do not need a outside agency to allow chance ..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by GDR, posted 06-06-2006 2:08 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 06-06-2006 10:11 AM ikabod has not yet responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 36 of 263 (318262)
06-06-2006 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by mike the wiz
06-06-2006 9:52 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
sorry but no philosophical the best answer is the universe exsist because thats what it does .. the reason that the universe is here is to allow exsistance .. not of us , but of everything , including chance .

if you insist on a god , then answer the following ,philosophical of course.

...why did god create the universe ?

...was there a chance that god might not have created the universe ?

...what is the chance of god creating other universes?

...where did this god come from ?

...is this god inside or outside the universe ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 06-06-2006 9:52 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 39 of 263 (318269)
06-06-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ramoss
06-06-2006 10:20 AM


does Popper's definition run into the problem of infomation .. to make the prediction with the highest degree of precision for a event .. ie which make of car will be the next to drive past my window .. the amout of infomation needed to apply the laws of nature and to describe the past leading to the event becomes so great as to be the sum of the universe plus its self ...?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ramoss, posted 06-06-2006 10:20 AM ramoss has not yet responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 41 of 263 (318271)
06-06-2006 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by mike the wiz
06-06-2006 10:30 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
your are using a false statement , if you are , as you claim looking philosophical at a whole ..

"I don't need Paul K to wash my underwear, therefore he doesn't exist."

you need the universe to exsist for your underpants to washed , Paul K is part of that universe , therefore you need Paul K , otherwise you do not have the universe in which your underpants can be washed in.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 06-06-2006 10:30 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 66 of 263 (318595)
06-07-2006 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by mike the wiz
06-06-2006 12:57 PM


Re: This isn't a "mike explain God" thread
Quote from Mike the wiz
"Time: An intention for events to unfold. (which then means that events are one of the intentions of the designer)

Gravity: the plan is that it should hold things down

Friction: so that things won't slide infinitely.

the vacuum of space: the plan is that a vacuum radiates heat, so that lifeforms won't be burnt so that planets can orbit at a correct path, so that water isn't boiled.

Light/star: The plan would be to give energy and heat to life.

Since time shows that it's only reason is for events to unfold, then it is reasonable to make the leap to say that these other laws will work for events to unfold. Even so, without making this leap anybody can see that these statements are true."

**********************************************************************
this is an example of reverse , im the center , thinking .. all of the above can exsist fine with out any purpose , it is you that assign's them one ..

friction is NOT there to stop things sliding , friction is there due to the nature of to the interacting matter ,

gravity is not to hold things down , who say things need to be held down .. if there was no gravity effect , then the universe who still be there .. but using different laws ..

vacum of space so that life can exsist .. ?? who said life should exsit , most of the universe is the vacum of space between the stars.. have not found must evidence of life .. therefore ist very unlikly that life is its reason .. evidence would favour its there to allow star to be seperate from each other

( side note ... given the evidence if life is the purpose of the universe it a very bad design .!!)

light /star to give energy for life .. hmm nope i think the more logical view would be life makes use of what ever it can find as an energy soruce ..eg light or thermail or chemical ... if fact most star are totally unsuitable for life as we know it ..

ok now time ... given that all the time we can observe is past time .. then clearly the reason for time is to stop things being changed .. i mean you go change the past hhmmm .. and is time not just a mapping tool to define something within the universe .

unless you assume you are the reason for the universe none of your points are valid .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by mike the wiz, posted 06-06-2006 12:57 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by mike the wiz, posted 06-16-2006 10:02 AM ikabod has responded
 Message 71 by mike the wiz, posted 06-16-2006 10:22 AM ikabod has not yet responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 68 of 263 (318666)
06-07-2006 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
05-31-2006 1:01 PM


back to the OP
if ,as you claim, chance does not exist outside the space / time universe , but a creator does , it must follow that such a creator has no free will , as they have no options

no chance ..means the creator cannot choose to create the universe as we know it or to create one that is more suitable for human life , there is no chance of them creating the universe 1 atom different .... thus the creator is reduced to a funtion of set laws .. hmm like a big bang ..

if creator has free will they can choose to do A or b , .. there is a chance they will pick A and a chance they will pick B .. thus chance exist outside .. which means your assumptions is incorrect .. this meaning no creator ..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 05-31-2006 1:01 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 3515 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 72 of 263 (322202)
06-16-2006 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by mike the wiz
06-16-2006 10:02 AM


Re: Back to school boys
Quote "This is all I require. This is why atheists have put forward ideas that work from big numbers; because they know that the fine or coarse tuned nature of the universe, would be too remarkable as a one off. It therefore either was designed, or CHANCE allowed for big numberse. (Because it is proved that big numbers negate probability)

Example; the lottery. Impossible odds, YET someone wins."

sorry but you miss understand the meaning of chance ..how many lottery ticket do you need to buy to win the lottery .. answer 1, the rest is a series of event that follow making your ticket the winning one , you do not need big numbers , now it may be that the result is one of many possibliities , but that does not mean you can not get it with a single go ..

if you wish to run back time you can where do you point to the bit that caused life .. ...

you only need to start one universe to get to have this one ..

quote "It's not that life should exist, it's that it is a fact that life does exist. A fact which should not be ignored."

well ,the stars seem to ignore it , so do the dust clouds ,the gamma rays , the atoms making up your head .

scientist look for life in planets that look like they could support life ....hmmm how odd where to they look for stars ? where do they look for sub atomic particals , where do they look for 5th 6th 7 th dimensions .. when you look for a taxi do you look on the street of in you ear ??


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by mike the wiz, posted 06-16-2006 10:02 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by mike the wiz, posted 06-16-2006 11:42 AM ikabod has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021