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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 188 of 263 (850959)
04-17-2019 7:08 PM


We already know of the creators.

As far as our knowledge takes us so far there are at least 3 of them. Two of them we’ve identified in extreme detail. There is another one but it is still hiding deeper behind our ignorance. We'll find it.

Right now of the two we've identified, one gave us an operating universe with energy and entropy, the other gave us particle physics and chemistry.

The one creator we know is hidden behind these two known creators will tell us how to unite both of the other two and thus look beyond this spacetime … maybe.

I'm having a moment. Mind blown by the thought of monkeys having figured this stuff out. We be real majik! Curiosity and technology.

Here. Have a banana.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 190 of 263 (851274)
04-22-2019 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by FLRW
04-21-2019 4:41 PM


Re: Necessary Certainty
The fact that Man has had such a poor quality of life ( 60 percent of children died before the age of 5 thousands of years ago) shows that the Creators did not care about Man as he was just an intermediate step to some other goal.

or, it means we are just another organism produced by blind mindless evolution in a universe that lacks any capacity to know or care anything whatsoever.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by FLRW, posted 04-21-2019 4:41 PM FLRW has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Phat, posted 04-22-2019 12:50 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 192 of 263 (851279)
04-22-2019 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Phat
04-22-2019 12:50 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Since the group of mechanisms that we call evolution are not goal oriented or planned, and depend on thousands of disparate data points from environment and genetics, the future course of evolution cannot be determined for a species.

Hot button, here, Phat.

At this point in the history of H. sapiens there is an increasing likelihood that our future evolution involves not having one. Species don't evolve when they are extinct.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Phat, posted 04-22-2019 12:50 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 202 of 263 (851306)
04-22-2019 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by FLRW
04-22-2019 9:32 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Creators exist because something had to create spacetime from nothing.

Says who?

"Creator", in the idiom, denotes some kind of entity with will in control.

The process that created this universe may be just that - a process. Some set of circumstances that may have had no choice but to manifest in this glorious spacetime without purpose or reason or meaning.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by FLRW, posted 04-22-2019 9:32 AM FLRW has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2019 11:03 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 210 of 263 (851363)
04-22-2019 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by FLRW
04-22-2019 10:58 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Now I remember why I left this forum. Goodbye.

Come on FLRW.

You started a nice thread with a good opening and feedback.

A lot take exception to what you say then you take exception to what they say, mild insults ensue and we all have a good time throwing salt at each other.

Yeah, OK, we're kinda loaded up with those science types (guilty as charged, your honor) who tell you you're nuts and here's why, but you can defend your stand, or at least die trying, and then go on to the next topic like nothing happened. Great fun.

I hope you have looked over the rest of the topics and have seen the breadth of talent, opinion and philosophy represented in this community. Some off the wall stuff comes in here with their off the wall advocates and we love it. We may not show it, many prefer not to, but there is a reason we are all here; To laugh at the crazies and throw salt at 'em. And the 'em is each of us at some time or other since we all get a wee bit nuts about something or other. 'Cept me. I'm the sane one of the bunch.

There are rules to keep things from getting too far out of hand but a good bout of verbal fisticuffs is a wondrous thing to behold and, well, to be a part of.

Come back. Give us your best shots. We'll all jump up and down, sling insults and salt all over the internet then go fume and chuckle at the dinner table afterwords.

Set a spell. Take your shoes off. Join us ... again.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by FLRW, posted 04-22-2019 10:58 AM FLRW has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 211 of 263 (851367)
04-22-2019 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by dwise1
04-22-2019 11:03 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
"Creator", in the idiom, denotes some kind of entity with will in control.
Does it really?

Yeah, you may run with a more sophisticated crowd. My liveware interfaces are rather parochial.

Or isn't that a reflection of our tendency to anthropomorphize?

Yeah, that too for sure.

I am thoroughly convinced that all Apple software has an attitude problem with me because I'm a retired software engineer

And you'd be right. I don't give a flyin flip what anyone, including myself, says about an unknowing uncaring universe. It just loves playing games with our heads.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2019 11:03 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by 1.61803, posted 04-24-2019 9:54 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 213 of 263 (851524)
04-26-2019 12:46 PM


You want proof the universe hates us?

Deep in The Carina Nebula.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 215 of 263 (857138)
07-06-2019 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
07-06-2019 3:00 AM


Re: Not A Chance
This guy is full of shit. He is using his own (willful) misunderstanding of the word “chance” as a straw man to push his majik philosophy of ignorance.

All we do is see the natural reality that occurred from the complex indeterminate setup of the universe prior to the moment we make an observation.

Repeat. That is the “chance occurrence” of a reality manifest from the set of complex indeterminate probabilities in the setup up of a system.

Prior to the observation we assess the probabilities of what we may observe. Then we acknowledge that upon observation one of those probabilities came to fruition. That is the “chance” we invoke; the outcome not the determining power.

Your majik man, in order to arrive at his pre-determined conclusion, ignorantly asserts that we are invoking some mysterious power we call “chance”, some “demon that jumps into the middle” of the process and causes outcomes, as the determinator of the observation. When in fact all that we have done is look at the probabilities of some outcome and then look at the outcome itself and answer…

“since we do not know the complete mechanism, the observation that ultimately resulted occurred by “chance”; occurred as one of the natural members in the set of probabilities.”

No one is invoking “chance” as some power to assert its will upon the universe and determine an outcome. Only that one of the natural probabilities that could result was ultimately what we see in our observation. That is the only outcome of “chance”.

He asserts that physics are saying “chance” has some ontological reality, some power to affect the outcome of observation, instead of simply acknowledging that an outcome we observed was one of the myriad of natural probabilities that could have resulted.

I think your majik man embellished (to say it politely) his apocryphal story of the physicist from Harvard banging is forehead in recognition of an error no Harvard physicist would have ever accepted in the first place. Not unless he was a very poor physicist who doesn’t understand his own discipline.

No physicist would say the universe arose by “chance” without a whole lot of underlying explanation of what that means. And what that means, in this case, is that we don’t know how the universe arose but there was some unknown complex indeterminate setup of the pre-universe that resulted in the observation of the universe’s existence. "Chance" as a determining power did not create the universe and no one, except the cunning diabolical religionist, would argue we say otherwise.

He goes on the say that since “chance” is NOT a power, has no ontological reality, that it is actually not a thing, that it is no thing, therefor that physicists, asserting that the universe was created by chance, are saying that the universe was created by no--thing, (faster) no-thing, (faster) nothing.

How fucking stupid.

Not a good audio podcast.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 07-06-2019 3:00 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 07-06-2019 11:57 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 2:36 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 226 of 263 (857214)
07-06-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Faith
07-06-2019 2:36 PM


Re: Not A Chance
So I didn't hear him say anything about chance being a power and all that.

There is a reason for that.

I only heard a bit of the Sproul audio

Good reason for missing his main point.

When you get to the "demon that jumps into the middle" of his card game part you'll understand.

That's perilously close to saying notning happens without God it seems to me.

Of course you would. Like GDR, Sproul and Thug your mind is warped to think in that direction.

I was not objecting to the physicists' use of "chance" but Sproul's bastardized version.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 2:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 6:59 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 232 of 263 (857407)
07-08-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Phat
07-08-2019 11:13 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.

That is not what is being said.

For your majik man, when someone says “the universe arose by chance” he asserts they are saying “the universe arose from nothing”.

The two statements are not equivalent. And he forms his assertion in a disingenuous and logically dishonest way.

He is just another charlatan collecting silver from the weak minded believer.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 07-08-2019 11:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 243 of 263 (861486)
08-22-2019 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Tangle
08-22-2019 5:57 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

Momentum v position
Energy v time

Because of the very nature of this universe the more precise we try to measure one of each pair the less precise we can measure the other. These are not limits to our technology but limits in the properties of canonically conjugate variables themselves. Bohr's principle of complementarity.

Edited by AZPaul3, : Opps ... add source


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2019 5:57 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2019 10:13 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 246 of 263 (861490)
08-22-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Tangle
08-22-2019 10:13 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

Are you certain?

Within a high degree of probability.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2019 10:13 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 251 of 263 (861502)
08-22-2019 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Phat
08-21-2019 3:41 PM


Re: Not A Chance
And AZPaul3, igf you are watching, explain to me if you still think Sprouls argument is deceitful and why.

Remember the last time he embellished (to say it politely) his apocryphal story of the physicist from Harvard banging is forehead in recognition of an error no Harvard physicist would have ever accepted in the first place.

That is all it takes for me to discount to zero anything else this charlatan cares to spew forth.

I'll pass.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 08-21-2019 3:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 08-22-2019 6:43 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
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