Chance as a sole-product of the Universe

Phat writes: Why shouldnt humans be special? We are, after all, the only species to have built all this stuff. No other species comes close...unless you think beaver dams are as amazing as skyscrapers and supercomputers.

It has nothing to do with whether or not humans should be special; all things are special. Cockroaches have been around long before humans existed and will be around long after humans have ceased to exist. And yes, actually I think beaver dams are more amazing than skyscrapers. You try building a beaver dam with just your teeth and no tools.

Phat writes: Did they make the story up or did they write about an event that happened? Why do you believe in the Nicene Creed if the whole idea is simply a story spun by a campfire on a cold night? If the story has value, would it not testify to human imagination versus an actual Creator of all seen and unseen?

Of course they made the story up and all of the evidence supports that conclusion. There is a reason none of the accounts are the same and that the earliest accounts don't speak of that at all.

Phat writes: why is evidence held in higher regard than faith?

I can't believe you even asked that. Evidence and the existence of evidence can be confirmed regardless of anyone's belief system. Evidence can be tested against logic, reason and reality.

Faith though is irrational, unreasonable, illogical and not testable except to the extent you can possibly test to see if someone really believes something. You cannot test whether faith is actually justified.

Verifiable and testable evidence.

In my opinion, God gave no evidence on purpose.

That's convenient isn't it.

People by nature don't want God to exist.

Bullshit. Support your assertion or retract.

Because evidence is verifiable and testable. Faith is wishful thinking.

Phat writes: why is evidence held in higher regard than faith?

Faith tells us absolutely nothing about what is correct. Who is right the Hindu or the Christian?

Always this need from believers to make faith eqivalent to knowledge......

Evidence points to the best answers and increases our knowledge.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."

Faith tells us absolutely nothing about what is correct.

There simply is no science to religion.

Who is right the Hindu or the Christian?

The Christian, of course.

Always this need from believers to make faith equivalent to knowledge......

For me, the reason is the inner confirmation of my belief. Of course I cant provide objective evidence...

Evidence points to the best answers and increases our knowledge.

From a humanist manifesto perspective, this makes sense.

Seeing how this is a science forum, I will defer to you and Theodoric regarding evidence...although I still ascribe to the philosophy that nothing happens "by chance."

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

Phat writes: People by nature don't want God to exist.

Does the Pope wish there was no God but since there is he might as well get on His good side?

You seem to have a very low opinion of faith - and of a god who would be fooled by people who don't want to believe in him.

Phat writes: From a human perspective, this makes sense.

Fixed.

Seeing how this is a science forum, I will defer to you and Theodoric regarding evidence...although I still ascribe to the philosophy that nothing happens "by chance."

Coin toss, dice roll......?

Coin toss, dice roll......?

Is it possible to calculate a fixed probability for either of those?

Did someone toss the coin and/or throw the dice or did they simply toss themselves?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Is it possible to calculate a fixed probability for either of those?

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Coin toss p=.5
Dice roll p=.1666666666667

If you think differently you're about to lose a lot of money.

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Did someone toss the coin and/or throw the dice or did they simply toss themselves?

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Sometimes you worry me Phat. What on earth do you mean? Have you been smoking that funny stuff again?

My point is that you cant calculate probability on cosmic events.

Phat writes: My point is that you cant calculate probability on cosmic events.

Come on Phat.

You cannot seriously think that.

Do scientists not calculate the probability of a given asteroid or comet hitting the earth; the probability of meteor showers over a given location and period of time; of accurately reaching a given cosmic object ...

Do scientists not calculate the probability of a given asteroid or comet hitting the earth; the probability of meteor showers over a given location and period of time; of accurately reaching a given cosmic object ...

Sure, but these are not macro cosmological events. Do they calculate when a super nova will erupt?
Do they calculate the speed of the Big Bang Expansion?
Do they have any way to calculate at what point in time The Bang occurred?

The Bible tells us "In The Beginning"...was this simply akin to a storyteller saying "Once Upon A Time...."? Or is "15 billion years ago" little more than a guess?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Phat writes: Sure, but these are not macro cosmological events. Do they calculate when a super nova will erupt? Do they calculate the speed of the Big Bang Expansion? Do they have any way to calculate at what point in time The Bang occurred?

Yes, including when our own sun will expand and destroy the Earth.

Yes, they have calculated the speed of the Big Bang Expansion and even the speed of the current universal expansion.

Yes, they have calculated at what point of time the Big Bang happened.

Phat writes: Or is "15 billion years ago" little more than a guess?

15 Billion years is far more than a guess.

Phat writes: My point is that you cant calculate probability on cosmic events.

You can calculate probability on anything with enough information. But in any case, none of this seems relevant to anything....?

You can calculate probability on anything with enough information. But in any case, none of this seems relevant to anything....?

My point is that I believe that the universe cannot be said to have occurred by chance. The universe was in fact created by necessary certainty. That it is means that we are. I struggle for the words I want to say. It may well be that one could assert that a Designer/Creator is unnecessary, but I would say that if the universe exists by necessity and if we exist and can intellectualize this stuff, than Certainty is involved rather than chance.