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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 166 of 213 (788471)
08-01-2016 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Thugpreacha
08-01-2016 12:47 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Phat writes:

My point is that I believe that the universe cannot be said to have occurred by chance. The universe was in fact created by necessary certainty. That it is means that we are. I struggle for the words I want to say. It may well be that one could assert that a Designer/Creator is unnecessary, but I would say that if the universe exists by necessity and if we exist and can intellectualize this stuff, than Certainty is involved rather than chance.

No Phat, what you are saying with all these mental gymnastics is that you don't understand how all this can have come about. You're tying yourself in knots with barely understood ideas.

Well nobody understands and it can't be resolved just by thinking and talking bollox - people far cleverer than you and me have failed to get anywhere with these sorts of arguments for thousands of years. The only progress we've made towards answers have come from mathematics and physics and those are beyond our comprehension.

I suggest you stick to your simple beliefs which are designed to get us over these difficult problems of incomprehension and not bother with trying to reconcile it with actual knowledge because it's pointless. It has never got anywhere and it never will - it'll just mess up your head.

The alternative, of course is to let go and realise that what you believe does not correlate to reality and get on with life for what it actually is without the waste of energy and time that is belief; quite short, but also quite interesting.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-01-2016 12:47 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2019 11:08 AM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 167 of 213 (788509)
08-01-2016 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Thugpreacha
08-01-2016 12:47 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
My point is that I believe that the universe cannot be said to have occurred by chance.

I think we understand your belief. What seems pretty funky is your attempt to apply rational thought to what you believe. I sincerely doubt that even the sources you quote came to their set of beliefs using what you describe as logic. That stuff is clearly after the fact of your belief. It contains no persuasive power whatsoever.

The universe was in fact created by necessary certainty.

After the fact, even probabilistic events leave a certain result. It appears that in telling us that the universe was created out of necessary certainty that you are attributing processes and motivations to God.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-01-2016 12:47 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 168 of 213 (788512)
08-01-2016 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Thugpreacha
08-01-2016 12:47 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
My point is that I believe that the universe cannot be said to have occurred by chance.

Who's saying that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-01-2016 12:47 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 169 of 213 (849290)
03-04-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Tangle
08-01-2016 3:18 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Getting back to one of our older arguments....
tanle writes:

...nobody understands and it can't be resolved just by thinking and talking bollox - people far cleverer than you and me have failed to get anywhere with these sorts of arguments for thousands of years. The only progress we've made towards answers have come from mathematics and physics and those are beyond our comprehension.

My point is that I see it as a spiritual war of ideas. Perhaps I am overthinking it in regards to science and physics...but look what this author suggests. He is basically describing chaos as a belief.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Tangle, posted 08-01-2016 3:18 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2019 11:55 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 170 of 213 (849292)
03-04-2019 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
07-09-2015 12:16 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Read my link in the last post and tell me what comes to mind comparing that philosophy to classic scripture. See the contrast?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 07-09-2015 12:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 11:41 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 171 of 213 (849293)
03-04-2019 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by ringo
07-20-2016 11:56 AM


Satan as author of Chaos
ringo writes:

God is an anachronism. He has been ever since we started looking for the real answers to our questions. It has nothing to do with chance. Even if God does exist, He isn't the answer to anything.

My argument is essentially that scripture provides rational "old order" answers that chaos theory and human reasoning have been trying to overthrow ever since the snake whispered in Eves' ear.

Remember your old argument that Satan had gotten a bad rap? When you were defending him? Note the similarities mentioned in this quote:

writes:

But if chaos is our friend, then why does it have such a shabby reputation? All of us have said, during a tumultuous time, that, “my life is in chaos right now.” If a room is messy and not functional, we say sheepishly to a friend who sees it, “Sorry, my room is in chaos right now.” If people are rioting in the streets, and violence is breaking out, and fires are being set, and cars are being flipped, and utter bedlam has broken out in every conceivable way, we are apt to describe this situation with the word “chaos.” And in none of these examples are we misusing the world. All of these situations are, in fact, chaos. And it’s this chaos that Jordan Peterson likely sees his book as being the antidote to.

Peterson has developed a catchphrase of sorts, that has resonated and caught on with many of the disenfranchised people who have come to him. “Clean your room, Bucko.” It’s such a simple phrase. The same kids who likely ignored it when it came from their parents are now championing it as great philosophical wisdom now that it comes to them from Peterson. (...)It sounds so reasonable, doesn’t it? Too bad it’s completely wrong. The people throughout history who have made an impact, who have changed the world, for better or do worse, have never done so by cleaning their room, but by messing it up. Remember that angry mob I mentioned in my example of harmful chaos—the throngs of people turning over cars, breaking windows, setting fires, and throwing a massive tantrum? Let me ask you this: what are they saying? Are they saying, “We are through with order and we now want nothing but chaos?” No. They are saying, “We are tired of the order that exists now, and we demand a new order. We demand an order more in line with what we want the world to be.”


Our Friend, Chaos - The Order of Chaos: An Antidote to Meaning

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 07-20-2016 11:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 11:45 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16673
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 172 of 213 (849294)
03-04-2019 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Thugpreacha
03-04-2019 11:20 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

Read my link in the last post and tell me what comes to mind comparing that philosophy to classic scripture.


I didn't read the whole thing. One comment that made me cringe was, "Life itself has climbed a ladder of chaos to reach new heights of order." Really? And he keeps on digging the hole: "Genes are not “supposed” to mutate. They are supposed to perfectly replicate themselves in a predictable manner." If he doesn't know the first thing about chemistry, he shouldn't write about it.

So, instead of hoping that I'll see what you see, why don't you tell us how it contrasts with classic scripture.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2019 11:20 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2019 11:49 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16673
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 173 of 213 (849295)
03-04-2019 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Thugpreacha
03-04-2019 11:35 AM


Re: Satan as author of Chaos
Phat writes:

My argument is essentially that scripture provides rational "old order" answers that chaos theory and human reasoning have been trying to overthrow ever since the snake whispered in Eves' ear.


So you've given up on throwing scripture out the window?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2019 11:35 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 174 of 213 (849297)
03-04-2019 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by ringo
03-04-2019 11:41 AM


Re: Not A Chance
ringo writes:

...So, instead of hoping that I'll see what you see, why don't you tell us how it contrasts with classic scripture.

This will take some time! I am just now barely reading this guy, and need to frame my argument. I am on his 2nd chapter now. Chapter 2 - The Art of Morality - The Order of Chaos: An Antidote to Meaning He mentions his reasoning for rejecting God and religion:
quote:
Religion was empty. The thought of a great despot in the sky, to whom I owed my soul, was no solace. And besides, I saw no shred of evidence that God was the truth. Christianity, the trendy religion of the time and place, was just a mythological construct designed to control people, much like every other religion that had existed throughout history. At the age of 14, I had already dismissed the notion of God. His existence was neither practical as a reality, nor desirable as a fantasy. My belief in God had the same shelf life as my belief in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, two entities that, unlike God, at least had something concrete to offer—presents and money. What did God offer? A place in the clouds where you could go and kiss his ass for eternity? No thanks.
Now, my challenge is to reread scripture to understand the contrast, because I'm quite certain there is one. I was hoping that your encyclopedic knowledge of scripture would provide you an opportunity to refute your original proclamation that God was an anachronism.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 12:05 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 175 of 213 (849298)
03-04-2019 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Thugpreacha
03-04-2019 11:08 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Phat writes:

My point is that I see it as a spiritual war of ideas. Perhaps I am overthinking it in regards to science and physics...but look what this author suggests. He is basically describing chaos as a belief.

Well that was a huge pile of words with no obvious meaning.

I don't see any spiritual war; what I see is science trundling along creating knowledge and religious people getting upset when something is discovered that contradicts a personal belief. This war of yours is one sided - like Don Quixote tilting at the windmill - the windmill is oblivious.

Phat writes:

My point is that I believe that the universe cannot be said to have occurred by chance. The universe was in fact created by necessary certainty. That it is means that we are. I struggle for the words I want to say. It may well be that one could assert that a Designer/Creator is unnecessary, but I would say that if the universe exists by necessity and if we exist and can intellectualize this stuff, than Certainty is involved rather than chance.

Well you may be right, some scientists think that the universe had to occur because the conditions for it exist. But it's a probabilty calculation and no-one knows yet.

All you're doing Phat, is telling us what you want to believe. It's not based on anything.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2019 11:08 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2019 11:58 AM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 176 of 213 (849300)
03-04-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Tangle
03-04-2019 11:55 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
tangle writes:

All you're doing Phat, is telling us what you want to believe. It's not based on anything.

Sometimes philosophy cannot be explained through objective proof or maths. Does that make such ponderings useless?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2019 11:55 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2019 12:01 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 177 of 213 (849301)
03-04-2019 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Thugpreacha
03-04-2019 11:58 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Phat writes:

Sometimes philosophy cannot be explained through objective proof or maths. Does that make such ponderings useless?

As knowledge, yes. But it seems to make some people feel better about their lot to create these philosophical fantasies for themselves.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2019 11:58 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2019 12:03 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 178 of 213 (849302)
03-04-2019 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Tangle
03-04-2019 12:01 PM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Note that I started this rabbit trail asking a question about math probability and a desperate need to win money.(at the other topic) and how it morphed back to this one, which I commented on in 2016 just after I had lost my job and was beginning a year of sobriety from gambling. I need to get back to that mindset, but im scared. I need certainty and not probability.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2019 12:01 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Stile, posted 03-04-2019 1:05 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 185 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2019 1:46 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16673
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 179 of 213 (849303)
03-04-2019 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Thugpreacha
03-04-2019 11:49 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

I was hoping that your encyclopedic knowledge of scripture would provide you an opportunity to refute your original proclamation that God was an anachronism.


Whatever knowledge of scripture I have is based on many years of hearing it on an almost daily basis. Reading one article isn't likely to have much of an impact.

The only thing I said in this thread about God being an anachronism was in Message 128:

quote:
God is an anachronism. He has been ever since we started looking for the real answers to our questions. It has nothing to do with chance. Even if God does exist, He isn't the answer to anything.
I stand by that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2019 11:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-04-2019 12:15 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 180 of 213 (849304)
03-04-2019 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by ringo
03-04-2019 12:05 PM


Re: Not A Chance
I can agree that looking for real answers is preferable to empty belief. The authors of scripture, though derided as "Bronze Age Goatherders", stated some profound assertions regarding life experience and human nature. The author of the series of articles that I referenced is also known on YouTube as the Amazing Atheist. When I stumbled across his expose of chaos theory as meaning in life, I ran with it before deciding that it goes against what the goat herders believed and taught. And so here we are. I need to get ready for work but will continue forming some sort of arguments regarding certainty vs probability and good being the highest ideal vs chaos and order/disorder yin/yang type of thinking which I believe to be one of the social ideas that undermined Christian absolutism.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 12:22 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
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