Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8936 total)
42 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Upcoming Birthdays: AdminPhat
Post Volume: Total: 861,627 Year: 16,663/19,786 Month: 788/2,598 Week: 34/251 Day: 11/23 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 211 of 263 (851367)
04-22-2019 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by dwise1
04-22-2019 11:03 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
"Creator", in the idiom, denotes some kind of entity with will in control.
Does it really?

Yeah, you may run with a more sophisticated crowd. My liveware interfaces are rather parochial.

Or isn't that a reflection of our tendency to anthropomorphize?

Yeah, that too for sure.

I am thoroughly convinced that all Apple software has an attitude problem with me because I'm a retired software engineer

And you'd be right. I don't give a flyin flip what anyone, including myself, says about an unknowing uncaring universe. It just loves playing games with our heads.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2019 11:03 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by 1.61803, posted 04-24-2019 9:54 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2899
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.7


(5)
Message 212 of 263 (851416)
04-24-2019 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by AZPaul3
04-22-2019 7:43 PM


Re: Necessary Certainty
AZPaul3 writes:

And you'd be right. I don't give a flyin flip what anyone, including myself, says about an unknowing uncaring universe. It just loves playing games with our heads.

This is precisely the reason that, when you drop something in your car, it rolls to the exact opposite place in the universe you can't reach.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by AZPaul3, posted 04-22-2019 7:43 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 213 of 263 (851524)
04-26-2019 12:46 PM


You want proof the universe hates us?

Deep in The Carina Nebula.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 214 of 263 (857137)
07-06-2019 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Stile
07-09-2015 9:29 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Stile writes:

But this concept of "chance as a thing" is incredibly strange and this is the first time I've heard of it.

I've never thought that chance is an actual thing causing things to happen.
Can you indicate any group of people that do follow such a strange idea?

There was a show on todays radio.
Creation By Chance

A good audio podcast.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Stile, posted 07-09-2015 9:29 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 07-06-2019 5:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 228 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:23 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 215 of 263 (857138)
07-06-2019 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2019 3:00 AM


Re: Not A Chance
This guy is full of shit. He is using his own (willful) misunderstanding of the word “chance” as a straw man to push his majik philosophy of ignorance.

All we do is see the natural reality that occurred from the complex indeterminate setup of the universe prior to the moment we make an observation.

Repeat. That is the “chance occurrence” of a reality manifest from the set of complex indeterminate probabilities in the setup up of a system.

Prior to the observation we assess the probabilities of what we may observe. Then we acknowledge that upon observation one of those probabilities came to fruition. That is the “chance” we invoke; the outcome not the determining power.

Your majik man, in order to arrive at his pre-determined conclusion, ignorantly asserts that we are invoking some mysterious power we call “chance”, some “demon that jumps into the middle” of the process and causes outcomes, as the determinator of the observation. When in fact all that we have done is look at the probabilities of some outcome and then look at the outcome itself and answer…

“since we do not know the complete mechanism, the observation that ultimately resulted occurred by “chance”; occurred as one of the natural members in the set of probabilities.”

No one is invoking “chance” as some power to assert its will upon the universe and determine an outcome. Only that one of the natural probabilities that could result was ultimately what we see in our observation. That is the only outcome of “chance”.

He asserts that physics are saying “chance” has some ontological reality, some power to affect the outcome of observation, instead of simply acknowledging that an outcome we observed was one of the myriad of natural probabilities that could have resulted.

I think your majik man embellished (to say it politely) his apocryphal story of the physicist from Harvard banging is forehead in recognition of an error no Harvard physicist would have ever accepted in the first place. Not unless he was a very poor physicist who doesn’t understand his own discipline.

No physicist would say the universe arose by “chance” without a whole lot of underlying explanation of what that means. And what that means, in this case, is that we don’t know how the universe arose but there was some unknown complex indeterminate setup of the pre-universe that resulted in the observation of the universe’s existence. "Chance" as a determining power did not create the universe and no one, except the cunning diabolical religionist, would argue we say otherwise.

He goes on the say that since “chance” is NOT a power, has no ontological reality, that it is actually not a thing, that it is no thing, therefor that physicists, asserting that the universe was created by chance, are saying that the universe was created by no--thing, (faster) no-thing, (faster) nothing.

How fucking stupid.

Not a good audio podcast.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 3:00 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 11:57 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 2:36 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 216 of 263 (857182)
07-06-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by AZPaul3
07-06-2019 5:49 AM


Re: Not A Chance
The only "majick" in play here is your methodological naturalism which masquerades for you humans claiming divine status.

Frank Tipler: The Singularity

I know that some of you have a disdain for videos and even audio podcasts, so I included the transcript with this 11 minute talk.
FRANK J. TIPLER is Professor of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University. He is the co-author of (with John Barrow) The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, about the significance of intelligent life in the universe, and the author of The Physics of Immortality about the ultimate limits of computers, and the role computers will play in the universe, and The Physics of Christianity, about his scientific research into central Christian claims and beliefs.

Transcript


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 07-06-2019 5:49 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:19 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17278
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 217 of 263 (857186)
07-06-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2019 11:57 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

... you humans claiming divine status.

quote:
Genisi3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil....

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 11:57 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 12:21 PM ringo has responded
 Message 235 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-21-2019 3:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 218 of 263 (857188)
07-06-2019 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by ringo
07-06-2019 12:19 PM


Re: Not A Chance
*sigh*....we've been down this road umpteen million times...but I guess we can revisit it.

First of all, who is "us" (in your opinion as to the clear implied meaning of the text)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:27 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 219 of 263 (857189)
07-06-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by dwise1
04-22-2019 11:03 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
dWise1 writes:

We normals try to use language to describe what we observe happening (AKA "reality"), while the fundies and creationists try to use language to change reality to fit their own whim, a form of word magick fit for lawyers and theologians.

Normals=language based upon observation and the scientific method.
Lawyers=language based on what gets their client off the hook and pads their wallet
Theologians=language based on their interpretation and belief in defining an absolute truth.

Right? or nah


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2019 11:03 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17278
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 220 of 263 (857191)
07-06-2019 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2019 12:21 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

*sigh*....we've been down this road umpteen million times...but I guess we can revisit it.


*sigh* Yes we have. Why do you have such a short memory?

Phat writes:

First of all, who is "us" (in your opinion as to the clear implied meaning of the text)


It appears that the authors of that fictional story were not as finicky about the idea of multiple gods as you are. If nothing else, it suggests that the Bible is not 100% consistent.

But what has that got to do with you constantly calling God a liar?


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 12:21 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 12:42 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 221 of 263 (857193)
07-06-2019 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
07-06-2019 12:27 PM


Re: Not A Chance
It appears that the authors of that fictional story were not as finicky about the idea of multiple gods as you are. If nothing else, it suggests that the Bible is not 100% consistent.
I question your sources on this one. You seem to push the idea that the Bible taught polytheism in the story of Job. I found this article:
The Polytheism of Genesis,Chapter One I would argue that though polytheism and pantheism are basic traits of human nature regarding belief where absolute monotheism is against our basic nature(nobody wants an authority in charge over their mind) ...in my opinion, God exists, (as One Deity over everything) and chose to personally relate to humanity (first by choosing the Jews and later by sending Jesus(His human character personified) and still later by choosing everybody...so as to secularize the belief.

But what has that got to do with you constantly calling God a liar?
Explain to the peanut gallery how I call God a liar. Be specific, keeping in mind that you have no clue what I do, could do, or have done.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:59 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17278
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 222 of 263 (857197)
07-06-2019 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2019 12:42 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

You seem to push the idea that the Bible taught polytheism in the story of Job.


I didn't mention Job at all.

Phat writes:

...in my opinion....


Your opinion doesn't matter.

Phat writes:

... keeping in mind that you have no clue what I do, could do, or have done.


You keep in mind that I have your post - which I quoted - as a clue.

Phat writes:

Explain to the peanut gallery how I call God a liar.


In Message 216, you said, "... you humans claiming divine status." But it isn't us humans claiming divine status. It was God who said we were like Him:
quote:
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil....

Not us. God.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 12:42 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 1:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 223 of 263 (857199)
07-06-2019 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by ringo
07-06-2019 12:59 PM


Re: Not A Chance
OK I see the context. And yes, I meant genesis rather than Job. My point is that God foreknew that we were going to become "like Him" in the same way that Lucifer chose to rebel from Heaven and become a god himself. Since there is clearly only One God, don't even try to argue that we are as much gods as God is God. You will lose.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 1:13 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17278
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 224 of 263 (857201)
07-06-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2019 1:05 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

My point is that God foreknew that we were going to become "like Him"...


Foreknowledge has nothing to do with it. He said, "the man is become as one of us...."

"IS". A done deal.

And it does not say He foreknew anything.

Phat writes:

Since there is clearly only One God...


No, that is not clear at all.

Phat writes:

... don't even try to argue that we are as much gods as God is God.


Nobody said anything about "how much" we are like God.

Phat writes:

You will lose.


You have already lost, time and time again. You can not back up what the apologists and commentators have told you because it contradicts what's in the book.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 1:05 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 225 of 263 (857207)
07-06-2019 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by AZPaul3
07-06-2019 5:49 AM


Re: Not A Chance
I only heard a bit of the Sproul audio and lost interest though maybe I'll listen again later. So I didn't hear him say anything about chance being a power and all that. When he says there is no such thing as chance, though, without going through all the reasoning for it, all he's saying is that nothing happens without God. Which I believe. As for all the complexities that go into the final outcome that we call chance, seems to me that either all of them are chance or all of them are God.

But that's me, not Sproul as far as I know.

But then rading through your post, which I should probably read more carefully some time, it almost sounds to me like you are objecting to the idea of chance, and are ALMOST saying, well, not that nothing happens without God exactly since you don't believe in God, but something close to that -- something along the lines of there being reasons for various stages of a complex event that we cannot know, and the only reason we call the end result chance is that we can't know the stages. But you know there is a "reason" for all of them even though we can't know it.

That's perilously close to saying notning happens without God it seems to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 07-06-2019 5:49 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by AZPaul3, posted 07-06-2019 4:19 PM Faith has responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019