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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4731
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 226 of 263 (857214)
07-06-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Faith
07-06-2019 2:36 PM


Re: Not A Chance
So I didn't hear him say anything about chance being a power and all that.

There is a reason for that.

I only heard a bit of the Sproul audio

Good reason for missing his main point.

When you get to the "demon that jumps into the middle" of his card game part you'll understand.

That's perilously close to saying notning happens without God it seems to me.

Of course you would. Like GDR, Sproul and Thug your mind is warped to think in that direction.

I was not objecting to the physicists' use of "chance" but Sproul's bastardized version.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 2:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 6:59 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33647
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 227 of 263 (857226)
07-06-2019 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by AZPaul3
07-06-2019 4:19 PM


Re: Not A Chance
I listened to more of it and don't thlnk I'm following it very well so I shouldn't say anything at all about it. Sorry.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3863
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 228 of 263 (857391)
07-08-2019 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2019 3:00 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Thugpreacha writes:

There was a show on todays radio.
Creation By Chance
A good audio podcast.

I don't think it was very good.

A coin lands heads or tails based on chance.
Do you think "nothing" makes a coin land heads or tails?

If so - then I see why you think this was a good podcast.
It not - then this podcast is terrible for the same reason: "chance" is not equal to "nothing," and anyone attempting to force that conclusion is obviously scamming you for another agenda. Such dishonorable tactics are not appreciated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 3:00 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-08-2019 10:30 AM Stile has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13152
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 229 of 263 (857393)
07-08-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Stile
07-08-2019 10:23 AM


Re: Not A Chance
What I got from the podcast is the idea that probability and chance are two different things. Probability is measured and thus known, whereas chance is open ended. The point of the coin toss was that the external agent launching the coin was known. The determination was based on gravity and the physics surrounding the coin. Also the strength exerted by the coin tosser. Chance (or probability) was an abstract and not in any way responsible for the outcome. In other words, chance itself is not a causal agent. Chance and the Sovereignty of God: Randomness

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:23 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:40 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3863
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 230 of 263 (857395)
07-08-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Thugpreacha
07-08-2019 10:30 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Thugpreacha writes:

What I got from the podcast is the idea that probability and chance are two different things.

Yes, that's what the scammer is selling you.
They are not two different things.
They are both the exact same thing.

Sometimes there are different contexts... but both words can be used for all the different contexts.

Probability is measured and thus known, whereas chance is open ended.

Nope, both are measured and thus known, and both are open ended in different contexts.

Chance (or probability) was an abstract and not in any way responsible for the outcome.

Just like probability.

In other words, chance itself is not a causal agent.

This is true.
And is also true with probability.

Chance, and probability, are no causal agents. And they are also not "nothing."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-08-2019 10:30 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-08-2019 11:13 AM Stile has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13152
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 231 of 263 (857403)
07-08-2019 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Stile
07-08-2019 10:40 AM


Re: Not A Chance
OK, I'll go with your argument. Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:40 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by AZPaul3, posted 07-08-2019 11:36 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 233 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 1:27 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4731
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 232 of 263 (857407)
07-08-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Thugpreacha
07-08-2019 11:13 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.

That is not what is being said.

For your majik man, when someone says “the universe arose by chance” he asserts they are saying “the universe arose from nothing”.

The two statements are not equivalent. And he forms his assertion in a disingenuous and logically dishonest way.

He is just another charlatan collecting silver from the weak minded believer.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-08-2019 11:13 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3863
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 233 of 263 (858100)
07-16-2019 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Thugpreacha
07-08-2019 11:13 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Thugpreacha writes:

OK, I'll go with your argument. Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.

It's not my argument, it's yours.
My argument is that chance and probability are the same thing.

You already seem to understand how probability is "something" rather than nothing:

Thugpreacha writes:

Probability is measured and thus known...

I'm just saying that the same thing applies to chance.

"Chance is measured and thus known..."

Chance - and probability, are the likelihoods of possible outcomes.
That is "something" and not "nothing."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-08-2019 11:13 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by FLRW, posted 08-20-2019 6:05 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply
 Message 236 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-21-2019 3:38 PM Stile has responded
 Message 237 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-21-2019 3:41 PM Stile has responded

  
FLRW
Junior Member
Posts: 30
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 234 of 263 (861394)
08-20-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Stile
07-16-2019 1:27 PM


Re: Not A Chance
So a probability of 0 means there’s literally no chance of that thing happening, a probability of 0.5 means there’s a 50% chance, and a probability of 1 means that it’s certain to happen. As you can see, the idea of probability and chance is the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 1:27 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13152
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 235 of 263 (861460)
08-21-2019 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by ringo
07-06-2019 12:19 PM


Re: Not A Chance
This is a better podcast that more fully explains Sprouls logic.(or as AZ Paul3 claims, ignorance. )
Chance:The Modern Myth

And all that Genesis 3:22 says is that we humans gaine the knowledge of knowing both good and evil. This is hardly giving us any sort of divine status nor elevating us into Deity status. In my mind, the evidence these days shows that we are not clear on which is which. Scripture even confirms this:

Prov 14:12 writes:

There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.
NKJV


Repeated later in Proverbs:
Prov 16:25-17:1 writes:

25 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

26 The person who labors, labors for himself,
For his hungry mouth drives him on.

27 An ungodly man digs up evil,
And it is on his lips like a burning fire.
28 A perverse man sows strife,
And a whisperer separates the best of friends.
29 A violent man entices his neighbor,
And leads him in a way that is not good.
30 He winks his eye to devise perverse things;
He purses his lips and brings about evil.

31 The silver-haired head is a crown of glory,
If it is found in the way of righteousness.

32 He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty,
And he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city.

33 The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD. NKJV

That last one is directed at me, the compulsive gambler. There is no such thing as chance. My problem is that I want to force Gods will (through prayer and pleading)to favor me...a desire that i am in no power to bring about. God is a God of tough love. Probably wants me to end up nearly broke like you, giving away all my spare change. Dont you ever think about your need to retire and realize that you cant count on the state or the people to support you? I do...which is why I get stressed and gamble...oddly counting on God...but according to *my* terms. Im learning, though.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 08-21-2019 3:56 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13152
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 236 of 263 (861461)
08-21-2019 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Stile
07-16-2019 1:27 PM


Re: Not A Chance
What I mean is that probability is strictly measured...when they make random chip generators for slot machines or print a million lottery tickets, there is a known probability of precisely which ones will be winners and how much they will pay. It is predetermined. The universe, if it arose solely by chance, would arise from a mindless math concept that had, according to you, a set probability.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 1:27 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2019 4:35 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 249 by Stile, posted 08-22-2019 12:07 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13152
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 237 of 263 (861462)
08-21-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Stile
07-16-2019 1:27 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Chance - and probability, are the likelihoods of possible outcomes.
Probability is predetermined. Its value is set.

Chance is by definition not predetermined....at least not by humans. If you wish to argue that chance (that created the universe) was predetermined, you need to explain Who or What determined and/or set the probability into concrete terms.

Listen to the audio that I sent ringo: Chance:The Modern Myth And AZPaul3, igf you are watching, explain to me if you still think Sprouls argument is deceitful and why. Stile, you can chime in also. I want an opportunity to examine any vacuousness of the claim.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 1:27 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Stile, posted 08-22-2019 12:12 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 251 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2019 12:28 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 238 of 263 (861464)
08-21-2019 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Thugpreacha
08-21-2019 3:35 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

And all that Genesis 3:22 says is that we humans gaine the knowledge of knowing both good and evil. This is hardly giving us any sort of divine status nor elevating us into Deity status.


It says, "The man has now become like one of us." That's pretty clear.

Phat writes:

In my mind, the evidence these days shows that we are not clear on which is which.


Funny you should start caring about evidence all of a sudden.

It's true that there isn't always a clear-cut distinction between good and evil. Most things have good aspects and bad aspects. It can be difficult to choose the best course in a specific situation because we have to weigh the good against the bad.

The same apparently applies to God, which would explain why he sometimes changed His mind.

Phat writes:

There is no such thing as chance. My problem is that I want to force Gods will (through prayer and pleading)to favor me...a desire that i am in no power to bring about.


The problem is that you want to attribute the results to God - and when you lose, you have trouble reconciling the God-is-on-your-side myth with reality. In fact, it is about chance. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.

Phat writes:

Dont you ever think about your need to retire and realize that you cant count on the state or the people to support you?


I am retired and I am counting on the people to support me.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-21-2019 3:35 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7123
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 239 of 263 (861467)
08-21-2019 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Thugpreacha
08-21-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Thugpreacha writes:

What I mean is that probability is strictly measured...when they make random chip generators for slot machines or print a million lottery tickets, there is a known probability of precisely which ones will be winners and how much they will pay. It is predetermined.

You're getting things mixed up. If something is random an individual event can't be predicted.

The universe, if it arose solely by chance, would arise from a mindless math concept that had, according to you, a set probability.

No, it could be random. In fact, given what we know about the quantum world it almost certainly was. But we're both out of our depth.

All you need to know as a gambler is that chance and probability ARE the same and that you have no influence on either no matter what you think and no matter how hard you pray.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-21-2019 3:38 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by dwise1, posted 08-22-2019 4:34 AM Tangle has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3839
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 240 of 263 (861477)
08-22-2019 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Tangle
08-21-2019 4:35 PM


Re: Not A Chance
All you need to know as a gambler is that chance and probability ARE the same and that you have no influence on either no matter what you think and no matter how hard you pray.

Unfortunately, my university textbook on probability didn't talk much about chance.

My take on it is that the two words, chance and probability, basically describe the same thing but also two distinctly different things.

Chance describes the situation in which things are not predetermined. You flip a coin or roll dice. Nobody knows ahead of time the outcome of such events, therefore the outcome is up to chance.

There is another situation, one alluded to at least twice by Gene Roddenberry [FOOTNOTE]: stochastic processes. The idea is that the physical universe is so deterministic that if we were to know all the factors and variables to a problem then we would always know the outcome. For example, let's take rolling two standard dice; eg, the outcome of rolling two cubes with differently numbered unique dots on each side with certain given initial orientations, intimate details of their construction, etc. If we were to know all those many factors (which is humanly impossible), then those processes would all be deterministic, no chance involved.

But since we cannot possibly know all those many different factors

BTW, to delve into just some of the variables to think of when making dice, look into that work of retired USAF enlisted and wargamer, Lou Zocchi of GameScience.


[FOOTNOTE]
Gene Roddenberry created two different story-lines about androids that I am aware of: Androids CDR Data and Questor of The Questor Tapes (1974). Both androids performed the exact same task (Data in The Royale (S2E12--1989March27)).
In both scenes, the android finds himself at a craps table and must win the toss. Both androids input all possible factors (including the feel of the craps table), perform the calculations, and make the winning toss.

The idea of stochastics is that such computations are beyond our ability to perform them, so they are better dealt with as probabilistic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2019 4:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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