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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
PaulK
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Posts: 15389
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 241 of 263 (861478)
08-22-2019 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by dwise1
08-22-2019 4:34 AM


Re: Not A Chance
I would say that probability is a quantification of chance. Probability theory was initially created (by Pascal and Fermat) to deal with gambling.

There is absolutely no requirement for the probabilities to be intentionally pre-determined. Naturally the probabilities Pascal and Fermat were looking at were not known in advance - that is what the theory was for.


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Tangle
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Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 242 of 263 (861480)
08-22-2019 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by dwise1
08-22-2019 4:34 AM


Re: Not A Chance
The idea of a deterministic universe is destroyed by quantum theory.

Quantum randomness is truly random, it can't be predetermined no matter how much information you gather. It's not a function of not knowing enough to figure out what will happen, we *can't* know what will happen because randomness is a function of the thing itself.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 243 of 263 (861486)
08-22-2019 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Tangle
08-22-2019 5:57 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

Momentum v position
Energy v time

Because of the very nature of this universe the more precise we try to measure one of each pair the less precise we can measure the other. These are not limits to our technology but limits in the properties of canonically conjugate variables themselves. Bohr's principle of complementarity.

Edited by AZPaul3, : Opps ... add source


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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Tangle
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Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 244 of 263 (861488)
08-22-2019 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by AZPaul3
08-22-2019 8:47 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Are you certain?

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FLRW
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Posts: 30
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 245 of 263 (861489)
08-22-2019 10:38 AM


The Universe is a simulation based on strings (String Theory). Whatever created strings is the creator of the Universe. It is the number of strings that shows intelligent design. There are enough strings to create 200 sextillion stars, one of which would have the random development of a planet to create life.

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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 246 of 263 (861490)
08-22-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Tangle
08-22-2019 10:13 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

Are you certain?

Within a high degree of probability.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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FLRW
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Posts: 30
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 247 of 263 (861492)
08-22-2019 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by FLRW
08-22-2019 10:38 AM


I just want to add that it is non compassionate intelligent design.

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jar
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Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 248 of 263 (861493)
08-22-2019 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by FLRW
08-22-2019 10:59 AM


Yet what we see is at best ******** design, inept design and design humans have been having to fix for hundreds if not millions of years.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Stile
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Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 249 of 263 (861499)
08-22-2019 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Thugpreacha
08-21-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Not A Chance
My point is that probability and chance are the same thing.
You're still trying to claim that they're not.

But, if we take your quote, and interchange "probability" and "chance"... it reads exactly the same.

You're making up a difference that doesn't exist.
You're allowed to do that - but you're not allowed to suggest that everyone else should accept it because it feeds nicely into other arguments you'd like to make.

Your original quote:

quote:
What I mean is that probability is strictly measured...when they make random chip generators for slot machines or print a million lottery tickets, there is a known probability of precisely which ones will be winners and how much they will pay. It is predetermined. The universe, if it arose solely by chance, would arise from a mindless math concept that had, according to you, a set probability.

Modified by swapping "probability" and "chance:"

quote:
What I mean is that chance is strictly measured...when they make random chip generators for slot machines or print a million lottery tickets, there is a known chance of precisely which ones will be winners and how much they will pay. It is predetermined. The universe, if it arose solely by probability, would arise from a mindless math concept that had, according to you, a set chance.

The words "probability" and "chance" have nothing to do with the point (I think) you're attempting to make.
It only adds confusion, I'd drop it if you'd like to actually make your point and not create confusion.

I think you're trying to say something along the lines of:

Slot machines have a chance/probability that is strictly known.
The universe, if it arose by chance/probability, would arise from a mindless math concept that had, according to Stile, a set chance/probability.

To get to (what I think is) your point:

1. I don't claim that the universe arose "from" a mindless math concept in any way - regardless of if it had a set chance/probability or not.
2. If anything, I may have previously claimed that if the universe arose from a mindless process, then that process may be able to be described mathematically - and that description may or may not include chance/probability.
3. I do think the universe arose from a mindless process (but I'm open to being shown to be wrong - as I openly don't know much about the beginning of the universe.)
4. I think the universe arising from a mindless process is infinitely more amazing that a universe arising from an intelligence of some sort.
-We know that intelligence is quite capable of creating things within their means - we do it all the time
-I know that many other intelligences are superior to mine and such intelligences are capable of creating-things-within-their-means that I could never do
-Why would I be impressed by one more "other intelligence" that's also "superior to mine" that is also capable of "creating-things-within-their-means that I could never do?"

What I would find impressive - is if no intelligence was involved at all to create all we see and experience.
That would be novel.


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Stile
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Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 250 of 263 (861500)
08-22-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Thugpreacha
08-21-2019 3:41 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Thugpreacha writes:

Probability is predetermined. Its value is set.
Chance is by definition not predetermined....at least not by humans.

Probability and chance, by definition, are exactly the same thing.
If you want to define them differently than everyone else - you're free to do so, but you're only adding confusion to whatever-other-point you're trying to make.

If you wish to argue that (whatever created the universe) was predetermined, you need to explain Who or What determined and/or set the probability into concrete terms.

I don't wish to argue such a thing.
But if I did, it would be easy to explain who or what determined the probability into concrete terms: It was determined by the constraints of reality itself.

How can reality become to exist in a way that reality can't exist?
Reality can only exist as it is capable of existing. That is, if reality arose in a way that it couldn't exist - it wouldn't arise at all.
Therefore, if it's going to exist on it's own - it needs must do so by the limitations inherent within itself.

Listen to the audio that I sent ringo: Chance:The Modern Myth And AZPaul3,

Eh.
I don't think I'll be getting around to that, sorry.

...explain to me if you still think Sprouls argument is deceitful and why.

He tries to define chance and probability as two different things, and use that confusion to mask the actual confusion he's creating with his own argument.


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 251 of 263 (861502)
08-22-2019 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Thugpreacha
08-21-2019 3:41 PM


Re: Not A Chance
And AZPaul3, igf you are watching, explain to me if you still think Sprouls argument is deceitful and why.

Remember the last time he embellished (to say it politely) his apocryphal story of the physicist from Harvard banging is forehead in recognition of an error no Harvard physicist would have ever accepted in the first place.

That is all it takes for me to discount to zero anything else this charlatan cares to spew forth.

I'll pass.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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 Message 237 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-21-2019 3:41 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

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jar
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Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 252 of 263 (861529)
08-22-2019 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by AZPaul3
08-22-2019 12:28 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Sproul does like his own voice. I bet he gets paid not just by the word but by the syllable. He has yet to find anything simple that he cannot make complex and inscrutable. Not word salad but rather the Salad Bar.

Edited by jar, : hit wrong key


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Thugpreacha
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Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 253 of 263 (861578)
08-23-2019 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
08-22-2019 6:43 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Sproul is dead, by the way. But essentially are you saying that Sproul makes simple things mysterious? Simple answers are not complete. You say that God lied. I say that the answer surely *must* be deeper, since we already know that God cannot lie nor would have any need to lie.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


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ringo
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Posts: 17292
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 254 of 263 (861579)
08-23-2019 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Thugpreacha
08-23-2019 12:08 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

You say that God lied. I say that the answer surely *must* be deeper, since we already know that God cannot lie nor would have any need to lie.


How do we know that?

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 255 of 263 (861583)
08-23-2019 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by ringo
08-23-2019 12:11 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Scripture tells us. Also common sense. There is no rational reason nor need for God to lie.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 08-23-2019 12:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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