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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 31 of 116 (616965)
05-25-2011 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by crashfrog
05-25-2011 10:44 AM


Re: Be Afraid
crashfrog writes:
You can always "blame the situation", but police who understood that their job was to put their own lives on the line for public safety wouldn't have fired until it was absolutely certain that they needed to
Actually, what you're talking about already happened as well. There was a case in Texas where a cop made a traffic stop of a man who now we know was a self-proclaimed cop hater. The man got out of his car. The cop took out his gun and commanded him to get down on the ground. The man opened his back door and began to put his rifle together. The cop commanded him to put the gun down. The man loaded his weapon, the cop commanded him to put the gun down. The man aimed at the cop. The cop commanded him to put the gun down. The man pulled the trigger and killed the cop.
Unfortunately, cases like that one where the cop(s) waited to be fired upon never had much press coverage.
The point is there are examples of both cases (cops are too trigger happy - cops hesitate to kill somebody) but most of the public only get to know about cases where the cops are trigger happy because of press coverage.
There was another case where a cop was going through a neighborhood, heard a woman yelling out stuff like "help!" and "oh god!" He knocked down the door and it just happened to be a couple doing a bdsm (bdms?) thing. The cop was sued. A couple months later, another cop was making the rounds and heard the same sort of noises. Thinking back of what happened to the other cop, he waited for the landlord to come with the key. Well, this time it happened to be an intruder raping a girl. This cop was also sued.
Again, we can play this what-if game based on our perspective all day. But the fact remains that those cops in those situations made the choices as best they could. They were probably not THE best choices to be made. And we also have to put into account the adreneline and stress levels involved.
Coward cops
You will not find a single cop out there that won't admit he's a coward. This isn't lethal weapon. In fact, I think you've seen too many movies of sort. This is real life. Most cops will admit to you that (1) they are afraid to die, (2) they don't want to be a hero, and (3) they will not sacrifice themselves to save someone else. Again, this isn't the movies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 05-25-2011 10:44 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 05-25-2011 4:39 PM Taz has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 116 (616979)
05-25-2011 12:49 PM


Another bad example

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 116 (617046)
05-25-2011 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Taz
05-25-2011 11:35 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Actually, what you're talking about already happened as well. There was a case in Texas where a cop made a traffic stop of a man who now we know was a self-proclaimed cop hater. The man got out of his car. The cop took out his gun and commanded him to get down on the ground. The man opened his back door and began to put his rifle together. The cop commanded him to put the gun down. The man loaded his weapon, the cop commanded him to put the gun down. The man aimed at the cop. The cop commanded him to put the gun down. The man pulled the trigger and killed the cop.
Actually that's not even close to what I'm talking about.
Don't you think there's a middle ground between a cop who won't fire his weapon no matter what - as this one clearly was - and police who execute civilians simply because they seem to be reaching for something?
Well, this time it happened to be an intruder raping a girl. This cop was also sued.
And what was the result of that suit? I suspect it ran afoul of the Supreme Court ruling in Castle Rock vs. Gonzales, where it was ruled that private citizens have no right to expect the police to protect them from crimes.
Yes, that's right - according to the highest court in the land, we've given police a state-sponsored monopoly on the use of violence and we don't even get to expect them to protect us in return.
But the fact remains that those cops in those situations made the choices as best they could.
They did what they were trained to do. I don't fault them - indeed I've defended these same cops in another thread. It's the training that's to blame - a police culture that turns cops into dangerous cowards.
Most cops will admit to you that (1) they are afraid to die, (2) they don't want to be a hero, and (3) they will not sacrifice themselves to save someone else.
Then what the hell good are they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 05-25-2011 11:35 AM Taz has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 116 (617069)
05-25-2011 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
05-25-2011 12:49 PM


Re: Another bad example

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-25-2011 12:49 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 35 of 116 (617154)
05-26-2011 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
05-24-2011 10:46 PM


Re: Be Afraid
Perfect answer from someone who's never been trained or involved in a fire fight.
In the real world, you don't wait for the other guy to shoot you first.
It wasn’t a fire fight until the police started shooting. In fact it was never a fire fight as the bullets were all headed in one direction.
That's liberal commie mumbo jumbo bullshit.
Are you suddenly filled with the urge to beat me with a stick?
(1) Cops don't personally know everyone.
How many of the people that you know personally are capable of being a violent criminal? All of them?
(2) Physics professors don't kill or maim people.
I think you missed the point there. Saying that everyone is capable of being a violent criminal is just as wrong as saying that everyone is capable of being a physics professor. It just aint so.
Again, say there are knives flying in your direction and they got a 1 in a 100 chance of hitting you. How comfortable do you feel?
About as comfortable as I feel driving down a busy road. From what I see it looks like about 19 officers out of every 100k are killed each yr. About half of those are traffic fatalities. Which is not surprising given the amount of time they spend speeding around for no apparent reason. So, as Crash pointed out, it is not a particularly dangerous occupation.
There are as of 2006, 683,396 full time state, city, university and college, metropolitan and non-metropolitan county, and other law enforcement officers in the United States. There are approx. 120,000 full time law enforcement personnel working for the federal government adding up to a total number of 800,000 law enforcement personnel in the U.S.
source
In 2005, 153 law enforcement officers
died in the line of duty according to
preliminary figures compiled by the
NLEOMF. Shootings (60) and automobile
accidents (41) were the leading
causes of line of duty deaths.
source
Back to your point in the OP about the tendency of the police to obfuscate the truth. I think it comes down to personal integrity. The fact of the matter is that there is a culture among law enforcement officers to think of themselves as superior to the rest of us, those who they claim to serve. The result is that we get a high percentage of police who are egotistical and self serving. They deliberately foster a work place environment that drives out the people, like yourself, who should be doing the police work.
If anyone is interested they can take a look at this forum. Blue Line Forums - Index page
It will provide a fair insight into the mentality of the average law enforcement officer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 05-24-2011 10:46 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 10:26 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 36 of 116 (617160)
05-26-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dogmafood
05-26-2011 9:03 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Dogmafood writes:
It wasn’t a fire fight until the police started shooting. In fact it was never a fire fight as the bullets were all headed in one direction.
We know that now. But the swat didn't know that then. Again, in the real world you don't wait for the other guy to pull the trigger first. He points a gun at you, you open fire. Jesus christ, how many times do I have to repeat this?
Are you suddenly filled with the urge to beat me with a stick?
At this point, yes.
You keep arguing with me using what we know now instead of what they were faced back then.
There was a case in chicago about 7 years ago that almost stirred up a riot. At about 1 am, a couple of cops pulled up to a young man walking down the street. The young man pulled out a gun and pointed at the cops. They fired. You know why people wanted to riot? Because it was a toy gun. Jesus christ, how the hell were the cops suppose to know it was a toy gun?
How many of the people that you know personally are capable of being a violent criminal? All of them?
Enough. Please know that one of my cousins is currently serving a life sentence for murder. Drug related. He and I used to play together when we were little. I never saw anything violent in him.
That said, again, cops don't know everybody. Jesus christ, how many times do I have to repeat this?
I think you missed the point there. Saying that everyone is capable of being a violent criminal is just as wrong as saying that everyone is capable of being a physics professor. It just aint so.
Jesus christ, now you're going to twist my words? I said from the cops perspective everyone is a potential violent criminal. I didn't say everyone is capable of being a violent criminal.
Back to your point in the OP about the tendency of the police to obfuscate the truth. I think it comes down to personal integrity. The fact of the matter is that there is a culture among law enforcement officers to think of themselves as superior to the rest of us, those who they claim to serve. The result is that we get a high percentage of police who are egotistical and self serving. They deliberately foster a work place environment that drives out the people, like yourself, who should be doing the police work.
Now, this I agree with. When I left, half of me didn't want to go. It really really wanted to stay. My issue was I didn't agree with a lot of what was going on. My reports, especially on the more serious incidents, were kicked back several times not because of writing quality but because of description.
This is why I left with a great sense of distrust in police reports. Now that I know how they do it, it scares me to death to have a police encounter as a civilian. Some are really really good with arranging the truths to paint a false picture. And no, from your words, I'm thinking you still have no idea what I mean. You keep thinking they twist the truth and stuff. That's not it at all. Police report writing is an art. They have to make sure the details will stand up in court while painting a false picture for the public. It's not as simple as twisting the facts.
PS - Funny how I never once participated in a police forum. I lurked a little and saw many young'uns eager to get their badges.
Also, now that I've been a cop, I will kill myself before I go to prison.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dogmafood, posted 05-26-2011 9:03 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-26-2011 11:05 AM Taz has replied
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 05-26-2011 12:20 PM Taz has replied
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2011 2:05 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 44 by Son, posted 05-26-2011 2:47 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 50 by Dogmafood, posted 05-27-2011 10:26 AM Taz has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 116 (617166)
05-26-2011 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Taz
05-26-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Jesus christ, how many times do I have to repeat this?
Nonsense. You can't repeat something into being right.
The cops shouldn't be going to people's homes and starting firefights. Period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 10:26 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 11:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 38 of 116 (617169)
05-26-2011 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by New Cat's Eye
05-26-2011 11:05 AM


Re: Be Afraid
CS writes:
The cops shouldn't be going to people's homes and starting firefights. Period.
Did you miss the memo where they got a court order and info that this could be a violent drug dealer? We now know that (1) it's more than likely that it was bad planning on the part of the higher ups and (2) it's beginning to look like they got the wrong house/person. The swat didn't know that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-26-2011 11:05 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-26-2011 12:18 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 41 by fearandloathing, posted 05-26-2011 1:28 PM Taz has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 116 (617174)
05-26-2011 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taz
05-26-2011 11:53 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Did you miss the memo where they got a court order and info that this could be a violent drug dealer?
Heh, according to you they think anybody could be a violent drug dealer
But anyways, they still don't need to go to his house and start a firefight. They should establish contact with him before rolling in with the guns. It can be done without giving him the opportunity to flee.
We now know that (1) it's more than likely that it was bad planning on the part of the higher ups and
Don't they count as "the cops" too? I not really blaming the feet on the street (so much)...
(2) it's beginning to look like they got the wrong house/person.
That just makes them look worse.
The swat didn't know that.
Yeah, it does suck for those guys. As much problems as they're still are with it, I do understand "just following orders".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 11:53 AM Taz has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 40 of 116 (617175)
05-26-2011 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Taz
05-26-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Be Afraid
You know why people wanted to riot? Because it was a toy gun. Jesus christ, how the hell were the cops suppose to know it was a toy gun?
Because it was bright fucking orange on the end and made of plastic?
Now that I know how they do it, it scares me to death to have a police encounter as a civilian.
Yeah, no shit. Same as the rest of us.
Do you think, maybe, that the cause of that has something to do with cops, not civilians?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 10:26 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 8:21 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 41 of 116 (617180)
05-26-2011 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taz
05-26-2011 11:53 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Our local sheriff done same thing, well I mean going to wrong house, in a trailer park, but while they were in the wrong trailer they found 3 pot plants being grown under a shop type florescent fixture, not exactly professional grow operation. The owner and his wife, both teens, 18 and 19, were charged anyway.
I often fell like these police forces are itching to use their SRT teams, they spend all that money on equipment and training and want to use it as much as possible. When you go looking for reasons to kick a door down and clear rooms like Delta or the seals, you will find one.
I think poor planning and not wanting to use alternative means to serve warrants is foolish and leads to bad PR. I know I dont trust the police as a whole. I know there are some good ones out there also.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 11:53 AM Taz has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 116 (617185)
05-26-2011 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Taz
05-26-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Taz writes:
Again, in the real world you don't wait for the other guy to pull the trigger first. He points a gun at you, you open fire. Jesus christ, how many times do I have to repeat this?
I agree with you that the police don't have to wait until they are shot at before they start shooting.
It isn't all that unexpected that the police will face a sleepy armed intruder attempting to defend himself if the bust in during the wee hours.
I think you've acknowledged this, but the cops have some responsibility for creating powder keg situations. We don't have to accept that the cops were in extremis when they put themselves in that situation.
Amadou Diallo was shot 19 times by NY police outside of his own apartment when he pulled out his wallet and a policeman yelled "Gun". Perhaps the police could reasonably have thought they were in danger, but ultimately the question was why the heck were they even hassling the Amadou to begin with?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 10:26 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by PsychMJC, posted 05-26-2011 2:30 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
PsychMJC
Member (Idle past 1302 days)
Posts: 36
From: Modesto, California
Joined: 11-30-2007


Message 43 of 116 (617191)
05-26-2011 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
05-26-2011 2:05 PM


Re: Be Afraid
That is my problem with the situation. It was dark enough outside that the officers say they couldn't tell what he was reaching for or what was in his hand. But they clearly think it was light enough for him to have been able to recognize an unmarked car as a police vehicle, and officers in civilian clothes as police.
Sure, we can live in a society where anyone who says they are a police officer is to be completely trusted at their word AND immediately obeyed. Wait... haven't some bad things happened when people do that? Rapes and whatnot? I don't consider those acceptable prices to pay.
If I were walking home at night, (or at least dark enough that you can't tell what someone standing in front of you is holding) a car rolled slowly by to a stop and four guys jumped out and started walking toward me, I may very well scramble to grab my keys and get into my residence too. So they said "Police". If they can't see a wallet in my hand, I certainly couldn't have been expected to see a badge. No flashing lights on the car. I guess I probably would have been shot too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2011 2:05 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


(1)
Message 44 of 116 (617196)
05-26-2011 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Taz
05-26-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Taz writes:
We know that now. But the swat didn't know that then. Again, in the real world you don't wait for the other guy to pull the trigger first. He points a gun at you, you open fire. Jesus christ, how many times do I have to repeat this?
Well, to me, it seems you think it's understandable if a cop fire first in case of a doubt for his own safety. But what about the civilian. Let's imagine you're an armed civilian, armed cops approach you or get you in your house, knowing that even if they are real cops, there's a risk that they could still shoot you unprovoked, shouldn't you shoot the cop first for your own safety? Moreover, at what point will people start to consider cops to be just another gang instead of public servants? Will relatives of people help cops or their ennemies after the incidents?
I think that's the bigger risk with this kind of reasoning, not only are cops shifting the risks to innocent civilians, but by reducing the immediate risks to themselves, they're also incrasing the risks to themselves and all their colleagues in the future. They're also making their own job harder. Sure, everyone make mistakes, but when a civilian makes a mistake, he pays the price but it doesn't seem to be the case with cops and that's where most of the hostility towards them come from.
Edited by Son, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 05-26-2011 10:26 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Jaderis, posted 05-27-2011 5:41 AM Son has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 45 of 116 (617246)
05-26-2011 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by crashfrog
05-26-2011 12:20 PM


Re: Be Afraid
Crashfrog, if I remember the case correctly, the kid had removed the orange end and the gun was black.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 05-26-2011 12:20 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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