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Author Topic:   Are Atheists "Philosophically Limited"....?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 165 of 262 (723779)
04-08-2014 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Raphael
04-06-2014 8:02 PM


Teapot
I do not believe you have presented an accurate comparison, my friend. I understand there may be some satire in your words, but I don't really understand.
An accurate comparison would be if ancient writings about this teapot existed, writing about real places and real people, and these writings made claims that the teapot existed. The collections of writings would not have been written by some committee somewhere, or group of people, but a simple collection of letters written by different people claiming to be eye-witnesses to the teapot, all at different times, all corroborating the same story. Not only would these writings make outrageous claims, (like a teapot orbiting jupiter) but there would have to be hundreds of times as many more of these ancient manuscripts describing said teapot as there are describing mainstream, accepted as true historical characters and events. An entire demographic of the world would form an ideology around the testimonies of the teapot, corroborating the ideology with subjective personal experiences. And despite thousands of years of time, the same writings would remain unchanged, claiming the same things, making the same challenges.
Then and only then would that be an accurate comparison.
As you wish. In that case we would note that:
* Copying something out lots of times doesn't make it any truer.
* Lots of people believing a thing doesn't make it any truer.
* If you write down anything no matter how false, the thing you've written won't change, because no document spontaneously rewrites itself.
And then we would ask if there's any actual evidence for a teapot orbiting Jupiter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Raphael, posted 04-06-2014 8:02 PM Raphael has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 227 of 262 (724643)
04-18-2014 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by GDR
04-17-2014 1:01 AM


QM
If there is no conscious being to perceive or measure particles wouldn't they just exist in an indeterminate wave form leaving a universe that doesn't look at all like we perceive it?
I don't think so.
Look, do the experiment with two slits. Then do it again with detectors at each slit to see which way the particles go. Then do that again but turn your back so you can't see the results. Now there's no conscious being measuring which way the particles go. But you're still going to get a particle pattern rather than a wave pattern, aren't you? So it wasn't consciousness that collapsed the waveform, was it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by GDR, posted 04-17-2014 1:01 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by AZPaul3, posted 04-19-2014 9:20 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 231 by GDR, posted 04-19-2014 10:45 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 234 of 262 (724682)
04-19-2014 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by GDR
04-19-2014 10:45 AM


Re: QM
But you won't know that there is a particle pattern until it is consciously perceived
Well you could say that about anything. Obviously I don't know a thing unless I consciously perceive it, that's kind of the definition of knowledge. If that's all your point was, there'd be no need to drag quantum mechanics into it.
But if you do want to talk about quantum mechanics, then in fact the wave can collapse without conscious perception, which is why when you turn back round you see particle pattern rather than wave pattern.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by GDR, posted 04-19-2014 10:45 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by GDR, posted 04-20-2014 6:11 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 241 of 262 (724786)
04-20-2014 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by GDR
04-20-2014 6:11 PM


Re: QM
I'm in no way qualified to have this discussion but certainly as I understand it, the only other way that a wave collapses is by being measured by a device constructed by a conscious being.
No, not really. Consider for example what happens when a photon hits a molecule of chlorophyll, transferring its energy to it, exciting it, kicking off the process of photosythesis.
To do that, the photon has to be in a particular place causing a thermodynamically irreversible chain of events. This is just what our measuring instruments do for us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by GDR, posted 04-20-2014 6:11 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by GDR, posted 04-20-2014 8:31 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 244 of 262 (724791)
04-20-2014 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by GDR
04-20-2014 8:31 PM


Re: QM
But we don't know that until it is observed ...
Well, again, you don't need to drag QM into it to say that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by GDR, posted 04-20-2014 8:31 PM GDR has not replied

  
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