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Author Topic:   Stumpers for PZ Myers
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 16 of 36 (619717)
06-11-2011 2:26 PM


PZ Myers Debates an Islamic Fundamentalist
This is a fairly appropriate place to put this since it took place during PZ Myers visit to the British isles.

My admiration for PZ Myers just skyrocketed. Watch as he more than holds his own against a Muslim fundamentalist in this sidewalk debate:

(In case the video isn't visible for you, here's the link to it at YouTube: http://youtu.be/3T5Pm7qLH50)

Being able to think and talk at the same time is an admirable skill.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 17 of 36 (619728)
06-11-2011 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
06-11-2011 1:01 PM


Re: Talk video available
Percy writes:

I would like to see Myers answer the bonus question about his recent work. I did do a quick check of his publications, and it does seem to be true that he's published very little recently.


From his pharyngula posts on biology, from that Glascow talk, and similar sources, you can tell that he is still actively working in biology. From the fact that he is an Associate Professor at UMM, you can tell that he publication rate is low. I'm not sure what else there is to say on the subject.

I took that question to be a cheap shot, an attempt to smear PZ with the implication that he is letting his work slip because of what he does on his blog. However, PZ was previously a prolific poster on talk.origins (the usenet group), so his blogging is probably just a change of outlet. If I recall correctly, he didn't much like creationists or religion in his usenet posts, so not much has changed other than the venue.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 06-11-2011 1:01 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 18 of 36 (619765)
06-12-2011 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by nwr
06-11-2011 5:36 PM


Re: Talk video available
nwr writes:

From the fact that he is an Associate Professor at UMM, you can tell that he publication rate is low.

Decreasing output is associated with increasing seniority? Hard for me to buy that.

I would have expected decreasing direct involvement with the research due to a growing coterie of grad students whose activities must be managed, but with the result of increasing publication output.

--Percy


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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 06-12-2011 12:09 PM Percy has responded
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 19 of 36 (619789)
06-12-2011 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
06-12-2011 7:46 AM


Re: Talk video available
I see that I wasn't clear enough.

I'm suggesting that he would be a full professor by now, unless his publication rate is below expectations.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 20 of 36 (619822)
06-12-2011 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by nwr
06-12-2011 12:09 PM


Re: Talk video available
nwr writes:

I'm suggesting that he would be a full professor by now, unless his publication rate is below expectations.

Oh, oh, oh, yes, I see what you're saying: He's still a lowly associate professor instead of a full professor, and his slight publication rate is a likely factor.

I'm not sure I buy that, either. Associate professor is only one level down from full, and he's tenured. Though interestingly Myers seems to view tenure as an arbitrary process, saying in his blog (http://scienceblogs.com/...francis_beckwith_and_the_cold.php):

PZ Myers writes:

One is to offer my personal sympathy to Francis Beckwith. Tenure is a brutal, evil machine that puts everyone through a hellish torture, and often spits out the deserving and rewards the undeserving. Do not ever judge someone by whether they have got tenure or not—it's too arbitrary for that, and often represents a kind of insubstantial and subjective matching or mismatching between a person and an institution. So on a personal level, I wish Beckwith well and hope he and his family move on to a satisfying position elsewhere.

But anyway, once tenure is achieved one has the freedom to not publish, so maybe PZ is taking advantage of that freedom. And on the other hand, the university has the freedom to withhold or minimize salary increases and assign basement offices for underperforming associate professors, so even after tenure there's pressure to perform.

But we don't know whether the university approves of Myers visible extracurricular activities. Perhaps they view them positively, sort of as public service activities in the area of the public education of science, and treat him pretty well. So he just keeps on doing what he's doing. As is Behe.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Minor correction.


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Mazzy 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2663 days)
Posts: 212
From: Rural NSW, Australia
Joined: 06-09-2011


Message 21 of 36 (619968)
06-13-2011 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Panda
06-03-2011 6:54 PM


Panda writes:

quote:
3) Could you please explain the sheer lack of congruence between anatomical homology and developmental pathways / precursors? Since such congruence is a prediction of neo-Darwinism,why isn’t it observed? Moreover, not only are there different embryological (i.e. non-homologous) processes and different genetic mechanisms to apparently homologous organs. But there is also the conundrum of homologous genetic mechanisms for analogous (i.e. non-homologous) organs. And then there is also the problem of homologous structures arising from different embryological sources, utterly undermining the evolutionary explanation. Isn’t the most straightforward reading of these facts that the adult organs have not been derived from a common ancestor? Why is it that you are happy to use those instances where embryological development and adult similarities are consistent as evidence of common descent, but set aside those instances where they are not consistent?

I would be very surprised if this question (for example) was asked during a verbal debate.
Unless you were at a biology conference, I doubt that 90% of people could understand the question - and I would expect the 90% wouldn't understand the answer either.

What I would be wary of is if they translate the answer question into layman's terms.
Unless you can reply in similar terms, then the audience will only 'understand' the question and not understand the answer.
This could then mean that Myers loses 'by default'.

Will his audience really be that educated in biology?
(I know that I am having trouble understanding some of the questions - and they are written down. If they were read out to me, I would probably need them repeated.)

When is homology not homology? I think evolutionists need to sort out the basics of their science before trying to answer the hard questions ....

"In the quarter-century since de Beer published his essay,
many additional examples have corroborated his conclusions.
It is now clear that several distinct kinds of
dissociations can evolve between homologous genes and
homologous aspects of morphology [2,3•,4•,5] (Figure 1).
In such cases, homology at one level of biological organization
does not reflect homology at another [6,7••].
Furthermore, evolutionary dissociations of this kind may
be more common than is generally appreciated, particularly
when comparisons are made across deep
phylogenetic divides."
http://biology.mcgill.ca/...s/Wray,%20%20Abouheif%201998.pdf


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 23 by Percy, posted 06-13-2011 3:25 PM Mazzy has not yet responded
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 22 of 36 (619971)
06-13-2011 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Mazzy
06-13-2011 2:46 PM


I think evolutionists need to sort out the basics of their science before trying to answer the hard questions ....

Then you will be delighted to learn that evolutionists have sorted out the basis of their science.

Let us know if you guys ever come up with any hard questions.


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Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 23 of 36 (619972)
06-13-2011 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Mazzy
06-13-2011 2:46 PM


Hi Mazzy,

I'm having trouble following that excerpt. Could you explain what he's saying in your own words?

--Percy


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1040 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 24 of 36 (619992)
06-13-2011 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
06-11-2011 2:26 PM


Re: PZ Myers Debates an Islamic Fundamentalist
Thanks for the video, Percy. PZ Myers does think well on his feet.

It fascinates me that the Islamic Education and Research Academy uploaded this footage, presumably believing it somehow advances their agenda. I suppose to the extent that they did not stone anyone, it does.

I must say, however caustic Dawkins and Myers may be in print or at the podium, they seemed quite civil, even genial, in one-on-one discussions.

So I'd call it on style points a tie; on substance, a blow-out for the atheists.



Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?
-Shakespeare

Real things always push back.
-William James


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 25 of 36 (620119)
06-14-2011 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Omnivorous
06-13-2011 4:43 PM


Re: PZ Myers Debates an Islamic Fundamentalist
Omnivorous writes:

It fascinates me that the Islamic Education and Research Academy uploaded this footage, presumably believing it somehow advances their agenda. I suppose to the extent that they did not stone anyone, it does.

I think the arguments made by their man, and very articulately, must resonate strongly with them and feel to them far more powerful than Myers' brief statements about the primacy of evidence and empiricism. They seem, like all other devout religionists, completely unaware that they are engaging in the exact same apologetics, in form if not in detail, as all other religions. Except for the particulars there's not a whit of difference in their various nonsense.

--Percy


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 26 of 36 (620469)
06-17-2011 12:02 AM


The video of the Q&A session following PZ's talk.
Here's the Q&A session video. It is around 52 minutes in length.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhX-8fBPWEs

PZ screwed up badly in the Q&A. Or at least that's what the ID blogs are claiming. See Colliding With The Pharyngula: My Encounter With PZ Myers and People apologised when the speaker for design was shouted down, but …. They are apparently describing the section beginning at around 3.46 in the video. Watch, and decide for yourself whether the ID complaints are warranted.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 06-17-2011 7:10 PM nwr has responded
 Message 34 by derwood, posted 07-22-2011 11:17 AM nwr has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1785 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 27 of 36 (620481)
06-17-2011 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Mazzy
06-13-2011 2:46 PM


Mazzy writes:

*irrelevant blathering*


Nice job at not reading my post.

Oh - but you have a history of not reading what you are quoting, don't you.


This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 177 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 28 of 36 (620571)
06-17-2011 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by nwr
06-17-2011 12:02 AM


Re: The video of the Q&A session following PZ's talk.
PZ screwed up badly in the Q&A.

PZ has now put up his own account onto pharyngula

quote:
Apparently, in the Q&A for my talk (which you can now listen to; MacLatchie is first up), he asked me, I think, question #3 from his list, but I couldn't really tell. As is typical, he turned it into a long-winded turgid mess, and I'll be honest, I really couldn't grasp what he was trying to ask, and I think he was actually getting at two different things. One is that there are differences in the embryological origins of some organs; this bothers him, apparently, because he's sitting there expecting that there shouldn't be any differences in how, for instance, the neural tube forms, because it's a primitive structure, and therefore, because development is supposed to recapitulate evolution, they should be identical. I missed that; I was trying to see a more intelligent question in his verbiage. Now that I've read the papers he was waving around, I can answer a little differently: yes. There are differences in how different organs form in different species.

So?



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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 29 of 36 (620574)
06-17-2011 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
06-17-2011 7:10 PM


Re: The video of the Q&A session following PZ's talk.
PZ's account fits what I could see on the video far better than do the ID blogs that I mentioned.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
This message is a reply to:
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derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 30 of 36 (625330)
07-22-2011 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
06-02-2011 8:48 PM


The last question is an exercise in misdirection and a bit of an ad hominem - one has to wonder how many scientific papers Wells, Dembski, etc. have EVER published. One should note that Myers has been published in both Science and Nature, accomplishments that nearly all YEC/IDCs can only dream of.
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