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Author Topic:   Does Evolution Have An Objective?
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 7 of 265 (618974)
06-07-2011 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Wounded King
06-07-2011 8:36 AM


Wounded King writes:
This sounds like a very oblique way to raise the question of free will in a deterministic universe, is that what you intended?
TTFN,
WK
Interesting that in a completely deterministic universe our choices would be simply a illusion. From the moment of the big bang, your choice to log on this morning was nothing more than a cascade of physics and chemistry. So despite apparent objectives, the inevitable choice was already made at the universes inception.
So if the universe is indeed fully deterministic, are our objectives simply a matter of course?
Edited by 1.61803, : spelling

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 14 of 265 (618995)
06-07-2011 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Jack
06-07-2011 11:10 AM


Mr Jack writes:
1.61803 writes:
Interesting that in a completely deterministic universe our choices would be simply a illusion.
This does not follow. The universe could be completely deterministic, and we would still have free will and be making choices.
How could something be a choice if it is predetermined?

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 Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 06-07-2011 11:10 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 20 of 265 (619005)
06-07-2011 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Jack
06-07-2011 1:04 PM


Mr Jack writes:
1.61803 writes:
How could something be a choice if it is predetermined?
Why would that be relevant?
We have free will if our actions cannot be predicted without knowledge of our internal state. We choose because our nervous systems are responsible for our actions. It matters not a jot whether those nervous systems are deterministic or not.
Hi Jack, I appreciate your point. It matters not whether the nervous system is deterministic or not. Except, It seems the brain chooses up to 10 seconds prior to the conscious person does. So our brain "knows" the outcome before our conscious mind does.
A PET scan operator can know the outcome of your choices prior to you.
Unconscious determinants of free decisions in the human brain | Nature Neuroscience
Edited by 1.61803, : add link
Edited by 1.61803, : link correction

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 23 of 265 (619009)
06-07-2011 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
06-07-2011 1:33 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
You know what I'm talking about?
I have not heard of that one. However I did hear about a experiment concerning Top Gun pilots. Researchers where interested in how they could make split second choices that always seemed to be the correct choice. In other words what gave them they're edge. The hooked them up to various telemetry to record brain waves, vital signs etc.. Then on a screen showed randomly selected images that were either disturbing or relaxing. The pilots brain waves and vital signs preceded the randomly selected image by some milliseconds before the image was shown.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 30 of 265 (619024)
06-07-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Jack
06-07-2011 3:16 PM


I agree Jack, our brain is us. I do not believe the universe is fully deterministic in the sense of a clock-work universe.
I believe it is both deterministic and chaotic.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 38 of 265 (619038)
06-07-2011 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Modulous
06-07-2011 5:14 PM


Re: Choice
Modulous writes:
The thing that is an illusion is the feeling that you could have chosen differently.
To think the big bang boils down to my shoe color selection this morning. I once mistakenly wore both brown and black brogues to work. Maybe I should of chose to turn on the closet light while getting dressed.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 55 of 265 (619403)
06-09-2011 5:07 PM


rat in maze
Look folks, IF the universe is fully deterministic.
That means there is from beginning to end only one path things will take. Like a rat in a maze, the rat chooses to take a left or a right, but regardless he ends up at the end of the predetermined path. That means regardless of the collection of atoms, gasses and meat puppets. ALL paths lead to the inevitable. That means you can choose to your hearts content, your choice is irrelevant.

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Taq, posted 06-09-2011 5:20 PM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 58 by Modulous, posted 06-09-2011 5:47 PM 1.61803 has replied
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 57 of 265 (619409)
06-09-2011 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Taq
06-09-2011 5:20 PM


Re: rat in maze
Taq writes:
People take this stuff way too seriously. A rollercoaster may have a predetermined path, but they sure are fun. A book may have a predetermined ending, but the story is still entertaining. If the universe is deterministic then we wouldn't be able to tell, so why not enjoy the ride?
I dont read books, and I hate roller coasters. All I have is my illusions that my choices are relevant. But alas I know the universe is nothing but a arbitrary amalgamation of matter set on a course. Human existence is superfulous to that end. So enjoying the ride is indeed all we can do to get the last laugh.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 59 of 265 (619416)
06-09-2011 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Modulous
06-09-2011 5:47 PM


Re: rat in maze
Trying to tell us something Modulous?
Kidding aside you are all of course right. I listened to way to much Thelonious Monk today and had one to many fermented hops.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 83 of 265 (619941)
06-13-2011 11:45 AM


choices choices choices
Initial conditions can not be duplicated. The nature of reality on a quantum level means the atoms and sub atomic particles are never in the same place. On a macro level the effects are negligiable.
So in a FULLY deterministic universe it seems the billiard balls hit in the corner pocket if hit in the same spot will always fall. So if one makes a choice to shoot the ball It will fall. You, the chooser are the instrument by which the universe DETERMINES the outcome. So in that sense a choice is made.
Does that even make any sense? On the other hand, given the universe is not fully deterministic, since weird random crap can according to physics happen on a quantum scale, such as quantum tunneling and radioactive decay. It seems to me the universe unfolds according to every interaction to include our choices.

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 141 of 265 (620427)
06-16-2011 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Dr Jack
06-16-2011 11:23 AM


Re: Self
MrJack writes:
In reality, it never happens all over again. What happens is that you make a choice, and the consequences of that choice happen, why do you think that determinism in decision making makes it not a choice? You are still considering the various options and selecting one.
Lets try this analogy, pretend the universe is a row of set up dominoes. Reality is unfolding as each domino is causing the other to fall. This is a deterministic system, nothing is left to chance, and the final outcome is already known before a single domino is tipped.
How is it possible for one of the dominoes to choose any other course, given the course has already been set from the start?
The domino falls and tips the one in front to fall, he may in his little domino brain as he is falling think, " I believe today I will fall forward and tip the domino in front of me over." That is the illusion of his choice. But in reality his choice was already decided. There was no other options, there was nothing to decide or choose.
In contrast: Reality may behave as several probabilities or domino chains all set up with multiple paths, multiple ramps and dead ends and jumps. In that scenario there are things that can happen that are affected by choice. In that scenario a choice is truly made.
Edited by 1.61803, : to add contrast

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 146 of 265 (620488)
06-17-2011 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dr Jack
06-17-2011 5:06 AM


Dominos,worms and programs oh my...
MrJack writes:
If, by analogy, you set up a system of dominoes with two entry lines of dominoes, and two lines leading - one going left and one going right. And you then design the system of dominoes such that if both entry lines are knocked down only the left exit line falls, and if only one entry line falls the right exit line falls then as far as I am concerned you have made a system of dominoes that makes a choice.
I have no problem with this except to say if the system is designed such that there is no way to know which "choice" a domino will choose then this is not a fully deterministic system. Unless I am misunderstanding what for all these years the word deterministic means.
What you have described is a system that has within it's design incorporated choice in the form of two options that it is unknown which will take place until a choice is made. Free will.
I do agree with you that it does not take a living organism or conciousness to make a choice. A flat worm, or computer program or a domino can make a choice. I just think something that is already pre-determined negates choice. Yes the thing can choose, but it's choice was already made apriori
MrJack writes:
Note that none of this requires any particular domino to either choose, or behave in a manner that is any way non-deterministic.
Sure it does, the fork in the road is ahead and the domino can either knock down both entry lines and the left path is chosen, or the domino can knock down only one entry line and the right path is chosen. It seems to me the fact that there is no way to know which one will be actualized until it happens would suggest a non determined choice. It could be the universe is set up like a series of possibilities and probable outcomes that once that course of action is taken reality unfolds in a deterministic fashion until the next cascade of actions comes up.
But again this is not fully deterministic.
What in your opinion does the word fully deterministic mean? Does it mean the outcome is still unknown? Or does it mean the outcome is known "pre-determined" and if so how can something choose when there is but one outcome? Is that not a contradiction?
Edited by 1.61803, : added the word Fully

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 Message 143 by Dr Jack, posted 06-17-2011 5:06 AM Dr Jack has replied

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 150 of 265 (620529)
06-17-2011 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Dr Jack
06-17-2011 10:27 AM


Re: Dominos,worms and programs oh my...
MrJack writes:
I prefer to think of determinism as meaning that everything happens in a way that it exactly determined by its initial conditions.
Ok so far.
MrJack writes:
The only reason there is only one outcome is because that is the outcome the chooser chooses. A different chooser, or even same chooser at a different time or under different conditions, might choose a different one of the possible outcomes.
The reason there is only one outcome in a fully deterministic system is because the initial conditions that cause the final outcome negate any other possibilities, to include choice or freewill. I concede that the vehicle used to obtain the final outcome does play a role insofar as to choose. But it could not of chosen any other way. Why? Because everything leading up to the final outcome has already been determined. So the chooser is merely operating not unlike a clock wound up and set to strike at noon. The word choice is of course a selection between more than one option. In a fully deterministic system, regardless of how complex, the final outcome is determined by the intial conditions and a choice, as we call it, is empty. imo. I know you think different. The hang up is the word Fully deterministic.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 220 of 265 (621012)
06-22-2011 11:48 AM


So It seems to me we are in 3 schools of thought.
1. The universe is deterministic and we have free will.
2. The universe is probablistic/deterministic and we have free will.
3. The universe is deterministic and we have the illusion of free will.
In all cases it seems the main contention is whether or not such a thing as free will exist.
I contend that since we are a non separate part of the universe our very existence along with our choices are a emergent part of how reality plays out. Reality may be a highly sophisticated 3-D video game with no do overs.
How we the "gamers" choose actualizes the cascade of events of all other possibilities. The collapse of the wave function so to speak. I heard about the information paradox that information can not cease to exist in our universe. If all the permutations of every possible out come is already pre-programmed, then we may very likley be participating in a game. We choose and operate within the confines of our universes rules.

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 247 of 265 (621191)
06-24-2011 11:32 AM


The atoms, molecules in combination with physics and chemistry; manifested your choice for tea at the moment of the big bang. A choice for tea 14 billion years in the making.

Replies to this message:
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