Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does Evolution Have An Objective?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 6 of 265 (618969)
06-07-2011 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dogmafood
06-07-2011 8:04 AM


Intent?
What is the difference between something that has an objective and something that is merely a result of conditions? Having an objective denotes intent which requires sentience. Just because a hole holds water it doesn’t mean that it intended to. If we all are just the result of conditions what is the essential difference between you and a mud puddle? Where is the demarcation point and why is it there?
You answered your own question.
quote:
Having an objective denotes intent which requires sentience.
But is this correct? Is a gray wolf sentient? When it is chasing a rabbit it is clear its objective, the wolf's intent, is dinner.
If evolution has no objective then how can anything be said to have an objective?
Is evolution sentient? Does evolution have an intent? Does a process ever have an intent?
The water cycle is a process that exists on this planet. Did it develop with an intent or did it develop as a result of conditions?
Humans are sentient. Some of the constructs of our sentience are objective or goal or purpose all denoting intent. Without human sentience these constructs do not exist.
Our present sentience had no effect on the processes that developed in the universe. Our sentience, and thus our concepts, are an artifact of these processes developed as a result of conditions are they not?.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dogmafood, posted 06-07-2011 8:04 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 12 of 265 (618992)
06-07-2011 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Jack
06-07-2011 11:10 AM


Probability
The universe could be completely deterministic, and we would still have free will and be making choices.
Or, this could be a probabilistic universe where a specific set of initial conditions does not lead to a specific future configuration but to a broad range of possible configurations. The interconnection and overlapping of billions of these broad ranges would give an almost infinite set of final configurations that may be achieved leading to the illusion of choice indistinguishable from free will.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 06-07-2011 11:10 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 27 of 265 (619019)
06-07-2011 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Jack
06-07-2011 3:16 PM


It's Them!
I have no idea why people think the unconscious mind is not also them.
That's easy. The unconscious mind is not part of our awareness, which is what most people think of as "them". That other parts of the mind have coordinated a decision before passing it on to our awareness for action is outside the conscious experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dr Jack, posted 06-07-2011 3:16 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 180 of 265 (620790)
06-20-2011 7:18 PM


Checkpoint, Please.
Modulous, Straggler, Catholic Scientist, Mr. Jack,
This is a fascinating discussion but at this juncture there is a lot of confusion on the ideas each of you express.
We could always backtrack through the entire thread to try and gain some clarity of each position but this is a tedious chore which most of the lurking community are reluctant to take on.
If the Great Moose in the Cybersphere will allow I would ask on behalf of the lurking contingent (minus the search-bots which most probably have no concept or capacity in the area of free will ) that we pause a moment and make a check point of your positions.
I'm thinking it would be helpful if each of you would take the time to give us one message each (without arguing or comparing any other position) answering the following:
1. Is this universe deterministic, probabilistic, random, irrational, other?
2. Do we as sentient beings have the capacity to exercise free will?
3. What is your definition of free will?
4. Please use this example to demonstrate:
You drove down the street, turned left on 2nd Ave, and had pizza for lunch. (I know, Straggler, the lunch you had may have looked and felt a lot like fish-n-chips but it was actually a deep-dish New York-style pizza).
At that specific place at that specific time with the structure of the universe as it was then set, did you have the capacity to turn right onto 3rd Ave instead and have a beef and broccoli dish in a savory brown sauce with an egg roll on the side instead of the pizza?
5. Any additional comments related to your position.
This will help remind the gallery of your individual positions.
If you think this request if full of guano, then tell me I'm full of guano, and I will go away.
Thanks, guys.
Edited by AZPaul3, : tense fix

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Modulous, posted 06-20-2011 7:56 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 182 by Dr Jack, posted 06-21-2011 4:13 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 183 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2011 10:24 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 201 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2011 1:46 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 211 by AZPaul3, posted 06-21-2011 4:54 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 211 of 265 (620919)
06-21-2011 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by AZPaul3
06-20-2011 7:18 PM


Checkpoints Here
To help keep our brains from exploding too early participants were asked (Message 180):
1. Is this universe deterministic, probabilistic, random, irrational, other?
2. Do we as sentient beings have the capacity to exercise free will?
3. What is your definition of free will?
4. Please use this example to demonstrate:
You drove down the street, turned left on 2nd Ave, and had pizza for lunch ...
5. Any additional comments related to your position.
Checkpoint posts are here.
Modulous -Message 181
Mr. Jack - Message 182
Catholic Scientist - Message 183
Straggler - Message 201
Hope this reference helps.
Thanks, again, guys.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2011 7:18 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Dogmafood, posted 06-21-2011 7:45 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024