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Author Topic:   Dark matter a dying theory?
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 1 of 113 (619075)
06-07-2011 11:15 PM


http://www.world-science.net/othernews/110415_darkmatter.htm

"Lack of suc­cess in dark-mat­ter searches have fu­eled claims by some phys­i­cists that dark mat­ter does­n’t ex­ist at all."


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Taz, posted 06-07-2011 11:31 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 06-08-2011 1:36 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply
 Message 8 by frako, posted 06-08-2011 3:57 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply
 Message 10 by frako, posted 06-08-2011 4:47 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 06-08-2011 8:06 AM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 15 of 113 (619116)
06-08-2011 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by PaulK
06-08-2011 8:06 AM


Re: Not so fast....
You know, It could be a problem with the math.

Let's examine this posibility as well:

Lat's say a spinning mass is off balance. take a beach ball, and in the center attach a metal core, one half iron, the other half aluminum. In a free spin (in space), will it travel?

Edited by tesla, : elaboration


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 06-08-2011 8:06 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2011 3:44 PM tesla has responded
 Message 17 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 4:54 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 18 of 113 (619123)
06-08-2011 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Theodoric
06-08-2011 3:44 PM


Re: Not so fast....
No real point other than what is stated. I’m aware that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So if a massive earthquake, or an asteroid impact can modify the behavior of a mass, a solar flare could move a star etc., then perhaps the behaviors are being affected by interaction forces (unseen matter in a standard sense) instead of invisible matter.

Or maybe the unseen matter is just too small to see, like a group of asteroids.

Or again, our math could just be wrong. The greater the distance the greater the difference a small mathematical error can show (i.e. if you measure a 6 ft. line--next to a 6 ft. wall--and are off an inch the first foot, the difference at the end will be 6 and a half inches, with a line length of 6 ft. and 1/4.)

It could just be variations in spins and balance because the 'evidence' is strong for spiral galaxies.

I'm simply suggesting there are other possibilities besides invisable matter. I'm not a scientists, so You can take what ya want or leave it all at that.

Edited by tesla, : added a wall. hey, maybe I'll make a room out of it.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 4:58 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 20 of 113 (619127)
06-08-2011 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taq
06-08-2011 4:54 PM


Re: Not so fast....
"Some theorists have suggested that rather than invoking dark matter, perhaps existing ideas about gravity might be wrong. Maybe gravity is stronger on intergalactic scales than what is predicted by Newton and Einstein."

From the article.

Also: "all astronomers agree that dark matter is such an exotic idea as to border on the crazy."

Also: "It is still possible there is some modification of gravity going on"

This to me is propaganda; scientists have to believe in dark matter to have funding for science in their field.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 4:54 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by frako, posted 06-08-2011 5:29 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply
 Message 24 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 5:30 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 21 of 113 (619131)
06-08-2011 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Taq
06-08-2011 4:58 PM


Re: Not so fast....
You know, light can do some funny things, because it will take the quickest path. We can only guess at what is between us, and what we are looking at over very long distances.

http://astro.berkeley.edu/~jcohn/lens.html

"There are ongoing searches to use lensing to find a type of dark matter called MACHOs (massive compact halo objects). Although MACHOs, as dark matter, cannot be seen themselves, if they pass in front of a source (e.g. a star nearby), they can cause the star to become brighter for a while, e.g. days or weeks. This effect has been observed, but determinations of the dark matter are not yet conclusive."


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 4:58 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 5:25 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 25 of 113 (619137)
06-08-2011 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taq
06-08-2011 5:25 PM


Re: Not so fast....
I'm simply pointing out that light can be tricky. All our stellar observations are of very old light (distance of a million light years means we see what that looked like one million years ago, not in current time)

There was a phenomenon of an iceberg appearing to fly. The light was following the fastest path to the observer and appeared in the sky instead on the ocean where it was, out of view of the observer.

I'm saying: nobody truly knows, and there are still a lot of other potentials besides invisible matter to explain the behavior. We don't know, everyone is guessing.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 5:25 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 6:01 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 26 of 113 (619139)
06-08-2011 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taq
06-08-2011 5:30 PM


Re: Not so fast....
False. Scientists have to back their claims with evidence.

And so far they have failed to do that. Many scientists see what they want to see. It doesn't mean there are no other explanations.

The data has to be interpreted. It doesn’t mean initial interpretations are correct.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 5:30 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 6:03 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 29 of 113 (619142)
06-08-2011 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taq
06-08-2011 6:01 PM


Re: Not so fast....
Every single observation we make anywhere is of old light. You seem to be throwing up arbitrary distances so that you can ignore the evidence.

Initial post. That site [The initial analyses] is from: is dedicated to new science. I'm pointing out there is not any evidence.

Scientists aren't guessing. They are creating hypotheses and testing those hypotheses

LMAO an 'educated' guess is still a guess !


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Taq, posted 06-08-2011 6:01 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 06-09-2011 1:51 AM tesla has responded
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 06-09-2011 3:28 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 31 of 113 (619192)
06-09-2011 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by PaulK
06-09-2011 1:51 AM


Re: Not so fast....
in general there have been positive results from other experiments.

well then, here is the update:
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/110607_darkmatter.htm

"Dark mat­ter is es­ti­mat­ed to ac­count for nearly 90 pe­r­cent of all mat­ter in the un­iverse, yet its ident­ity re­mains one of the big­gest mys­ter­ies of mod­ern sci­ence. Al­though dark mat­ter is in­vis­i­ble to tele­scopes, most as­tro­no­mers say they know it exists be­cause it ex­erts a strong gravita­t­ional in­flu­ence over ga­lax­ies that noth­ing vis­i­ble can ex­plain."

This paragraph sums up the evidence quite well:

In science language, I read : "strong (apparently) gravita­t­ional in­flu­ence"

and:

"noth­ing vis­i­ble can ex­plain."

If all the space dust in a galaxy is collected, what is its gravitational capability? or does that not matter either?


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

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Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 06-09-2011 3:29 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply
 Message 33 by Panda, posted 06-09-2011 7:51 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 06-09-2011 9:27 AM tesla has responded
 Message 50 by Taq, posted 06-09-2011 3:31 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 35 of 113 (619278)
06-09-2011 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Percy
06-09-2011 9:27 AM


Re: Not so fast....
There is something we cannot see exerting a gravitational influence on galaxies. We don't know what is exerting this force, but we've given it a name: dark matter. We have very strong observational evidence of this phenomena.

There is something we cannot see exerting emotional and behavioral influence on mankind. We don't know why this force has such influence, but we have given it names like "God" or "Belief structure". We have very strong observational evidence of this phenomena.

Do you see that this evidence is not really any evidence other giving a name to an unexplainable phenomenon?

What we don't have any good evidence for is the nature of dark matter. We don't know what it is. No one is claiming we know what it is. One cannot make claims based upon insufficient evidence.

That is exactly what everyone is doing though.

There are a number of hypotheses about the nature of dark matter. Maybe one of them is right, maybe not. We don't know yet.

Those entertaining the alternative hypotheses do not seem to be entertaining them here.

Edited by tesla, : missing quote box added.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 06-09-2011 9:27 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 06-09-2011 1:53 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 37 of 113 (619338)
06-09-2011 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Percy
06-09-2011 1:53 PM


Re: Not so fast....
But when you say "God" is "exerting emotional and behavioral influences on mankind" you're implying a very specific answer, one you have no evidence for.

Do you know anything at all about the history of mankind and mankind’s buildings of temples and cities in the name of God?

Or noticed 'In God we trust' on money?

Have you seen the joy in a person’s face in a church when they have prayed?

No evidence? The evidence of the influence on this mystery called "God" on mankind is so bold and evident you can only ignore it to not see it.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 06-09-2011 1:53 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Percy, posted 06-09-2011 2:53 PM tesla has responded
 Message 46 by jar, posted 06-09-2011 3:23 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply
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tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 45 of 113 (619360)
06-09-2011 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Percy
06-09-2011 2:53 PM


Re: Not so fast....
We give the cause of this gravitational influence the name "dark matter."

I see nothing wrong with that. What I am pointing out is due to lack of evidence it might be wise to put alternative idea's into the foreground and keep dark matter a potential until proven otherwise.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

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 Message 40 by Percy, posted 06-09-2011 2:53 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 48 of 113 (619366)
06-09-2011 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
06-09-2011 3:28 PM


Re: Not so fast....
A verified hypothesis is not an educated guess. Do you even understand how science works?

A verified hypothesis is not a hypothesis. Are you attempting to convince me that science has accepted dark matter as a fact? Because if so, scientists accept dark matter is only 'potential' and has no verification. Do you know more than all of today’s leading scientists?


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 06-09-2011 3:28 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Taq, posted 06-09-2011 3:39 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 66 of 113 (619432)
06-09-2011 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Taq
06-09-2011 3:31 PM


Re: Not so fast....
Yep, matter that does not absorb, reflect, or emit light. What is wrong with that?

Um...lol

The sum of the mass is the gravitational capability. This sum is much less than the amount of gravity that galaxies are producing as observed by spin rate and gravitational lensing.

All our math of a body’s density and mass are approximations though.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Taq, posted 06-09-2011 3:31 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Taz, posted 06-09-2011 7:19 PM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 67 of 113 (619433)
06-09-2011 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Taq
06-09-2011 3:39 PM


Re: Not so fast....
I posted a picture and posted a link describing research into dark matter. I described how it tested for the presence of dark matter, and how dark matter was verified. How is this an "educated guess"? Most would call it strong evidence, and most astronomers do.

The behavior that prompted the belief that dark matter could be a cause was verified. Dark matter itself has not been verified.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Taq, posted 06-09-2011 3:39 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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