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Author Topic:   What is the creation science theory of the origin of light?
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 1153 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 76 of 297 (623718)
07-12-2011 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-12-2011 8:30 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
The post you were replying to in its title contained the question what were those dimensions in aid of. Further it expressed my reasons for doubting the extra dimensions were in aid of anything at all really.

And my point is that your vocabulary and reasoning demonstrate a lack of understanding.

First of all, why must a dimension be in "aid of" anything?

Second, expressing your reasons in doubting something doesn't really matter one way or another unless you have sufficient understanding of the topic.

I know next to nothing about automechanics. I can express all the doubts I want about whether or not this hoosiewhatsit is needed to make the car go.

So tell me then what is it exactly that you know so well and I am so ignorant of.

This is a topic that requires many years of advancement mathematics and theoretical physics. Much of what people "know" is best expressed as equations.

Have you done the years of schooling necessary to read such equations? To write them? To know if something is in error?

You're to be provided with 8 years of college level courses through the medium of a chat board. On a forum where you've been a member for 3 months.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-12-2011 8:30 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-15-2011 11:52 PM Nuggin has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 417
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(1)
Message 77 of 297 (623723)
07-12-2011 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-12-2011 7:27 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
The dimensions I observe...while those verbs used...

I think this might be the problem. Extra dimensions and so on are in aid of predictions made by mathematics. They are irrelevant to the imagery of 3 dimensions, and they cannot be explained using the language of verbs. The reason that these ideas "do not combine to make any sense" to you is that you are combining crude metaphors for the concepts in question. You are confusing a set of very rough maps with the territories they unsuccessfully try to represent.

Mark Twain covers this sort of error very well in Tom Sawyer Abroad, where he has Tom and Huck arguing whether the balloon in which they are riding is over Illinois or Indiana based on the color of the ground not matching the color of the states as found in their school atlas.

Our brains simply cannot make sense of this field using mental imagery that was evolved from our ancestors' very limited ability to observe the universe.

Capt.

Edited by Capt Stormfield, : typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-12-2011 7:27 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-12-2011 10:21 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 2628 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 78 of 297 (623725)
07-12-2011 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Capt Stormfield
07-12-2011 9:54 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
Well, yes I understand that the extra dimensions are in aid of predictions following from the equations made by the mathemagicians or rather in aid of preventing two sets of equations that are making an apparent sense separately from resulting in apparent nonsense when used together. Yet you must keep in mind that those equations are in their turn in aid of explaining the phenomenon of gravity the effects of which might have been as apparent to those ancestors whose minds your assume to be so much inferior to the brains of the advanced mathemagicians.
Do you leave out the possibility that the same reconciliation of the two sets of equations might be achieved by some other, more simple and elegant means without invoking any redundant entities?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-12-2011 9:54 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2011 3:44 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded
 Message 80 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-13-2011 10:53 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 297 (623740)
07-13-2011 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-12-2011 10:21 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
Do you leave out the possibility that the same reconciliation of the two sets of equations might be achieved by some other, more simple and elegant means without invoking any redundant entities?

If they're necessary to explain the phenomena they're not redundant.

But if you think you can do better, feel free to try.

While you're at it, it's always bothered me that Newtonian mechanics involves all this pesky calculus. Can you come up with some "more simple and elegant" method involving counting on my fingers? Clearly the fact that the math is difficult is a weakness of the theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-12-2011 10:21 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 417
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 80 of 297 (623776)
07-13-2011 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-12-2011 10:21 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
Do you leave out the possibility that the same reconciliation of the two sets of equations might be achieved by some other, more simple and elegant means without invoking any redundant entities?

Of course not. It simply remains for you to do the work of formulating such means. Until that happy day, your inability to fit reality into a metaphor with which you are comfortable remains an issue of semantics, not of physics or mathematics.

Capt.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-12-2011 10:21 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 2628 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 81 of 297 (624102)
07-15-2011 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Nuggin
07-12-2011 9:06 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
There are two distinct possibilities here. The first possibility is that I am an ignorant fool and after eight years of pouring over the equations like you suggest, I should discover what those putative dimensions are in aid of exactly and how any strings can possibly vibrate while not being attached to anything, how anything possessing zero height can possess any width or length and so on. Study for eight years, understand at last and be ashamed of my previous ignorance is the programme.
The second possibility is that it is you who are fooling me, yourself and everybody else here and all those putative extra entities and invisible dimensions in aid of is to enable you to feel important and condescending while juggling around fantastic concepts possible on paper only.
Which is it, I wonder?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Nuggin, posted 07-12-2011 9:06 PM Nuggin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by DrJones*, posted 07-16-2011 12:01 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded
 Message 83 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-16-2011 12:40 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded
 Message 86 by cavediver, posted 07-16-2011 2:52 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2151
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 82 of 297 (624103)
07-16-2011 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-15-2011 11:52 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
Which is it, I wonder?

The answer should be easy for you to determine, just show where the math is wrong. Include your work.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-15-2011 11:52 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 1:33 AM DrJones* has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 83 of 297 (624106)
07-16-2011 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-15-2011 11:52 PM


Clue
There are two distinct possibilities here. The first possibility is that I am an ignorant fool and after eight years of pouring over the equations like you suggest, I should discover what those putative dimensions are in aid of exactly and how any strings can possibly vibrate while not being attached to anything, how anything possessing zero height can possess any width or length and so on. Study for eight years, understand at last and be ashamed of my previous ignorance is the programme.
The second possibility is that it is you who are fooling me, yourself and everybody else here and all those putative extra entities and invisible dimensions in aid of is to enable you to feel important and condescending while juggling around fantastic concepts possible on paper only.
Which is it, I wonder?

Here's a clue: out of those who have studied advanced physics, exactly zero have come to the conclusion that its purpose is to enable Nuggin to feel important and condescending.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-15-2011 11:52 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 2628 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 84 of 297 (624109)
07-16-2011 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by DrJones*
07-16-2011 12:01 AM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
Is it though a question of the maths being right or wrong? If first I claim that that a leprechaun hides on average seven pots of gold an hour in Ireland and only five in all other places and then claim that I know respective leprechaun populations of several European states, I can easily calculate how many pots of it is hidden by leprechauns in each of those states. I can derive the ratio of Irish leprechaun gold to that outside of the Green Isle and host of other leprechaun gold related vectors and variables suggesting to you that the only thing unknown to me is the precise locations of the gold hidden and that I need some money to do more research into leprechauns' habits and that it is a very good investment you should make and that it is promising to make both of us very rich given how good and precise my maths is so far. What would you be contesting in the case you'd disagree with my conclusions and would not want to invest your money in my project- my maths or something else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by DrJones*, posted 07-16-2011 12:01 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by DrJones*, posted 07-16-2011 1:44 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2151
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 85 of 297 (624110)
07-16-2011 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-16-2011 1:33 AM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
Is it though a question of the maths being right or wrong?

Yes, seeing as you're disagreeing with the math. Simply show where the math is in error, include your work.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 1:33 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 7:18 AM DrJones* has responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 2304 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 86 of 297 (624112)
07-16-2011 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-15-2011 11:52 PM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
The first possibility is that I am an ignorant fool and after eight years of pouring over the equations like you suggest, I should discover what those putative dimensions are in aid of exactly and how any strings can possibly vibrate while not being attached to anything, how anything possessing zero height can possess any width or length and so on.

It seems that your entire approach to science is "Can I understand this? If so, it is probably correct; if not, it is almost certainly wrong." I have to say that this combination of utter arrogance and total ineptitude is endemic amongst the cranks and armchair pontificators that spring up on the internet. I am sorry to say but you have wasted your eight years of "study". Within a matter of days, you could have read the first few chapters of Superstrings by Green, Schwarz, and Witten (Cambridge University Press), and would know exactly why we have these extra dimensions in String Theory - but somehow I get the feeling that these eight years of "study" have studeously avoided anything that can be considered close to actual academic work.

Don't get me wrong - there are many who have little time for String Theory and its descendents, many for whom I have the deepest respect. But they come to their conclusions based upon a foundation of knowledge and expertise, where-as you come to your "conclusions" based upon ignorance and incomprehension. There is, as I'm sure you will agree, a fundemental difference...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-15-2011 11:52 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 6:42 AM cavediver has responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 2628 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 87 of 297 (624131)
07-16-2011 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by cavediver
07-16-2011 2:52 AM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
I am sorry, Crankdriver, but I read all those you presume I did not but should.
Also you just presume I don't understand what those people who devised the idea intended and would love it to be in aid of. That I do very well. If it does serve none of the intended purposes is another matter.
Vast difference. I just wanted to hear his explanation in his own words or your explanation in your own words. You concentrate on the road ahead too much and miss all the side irony, driver.
Anyway, instead of own attempts to explain all I get is the usual appeals to the authority of academic experts. By the way, eight years are purely hypothetical and were based on Nuggin's estimation of the number of years it takes to grasp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by cavediver, posted 07-16-2011 2:52 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Larni, posted 07-16-2011 6:47 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3998
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 88 of 297 (624132)
07-16-2011 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-16-2011 6:42 AM


Pony up the maths.
To re iterate Dr A: show us the maths (or math, if you are American).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 6:42 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 2628 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 89 of 297 (624142)
07-16-2011 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by DrJones*
07-16-2011 1:44 AM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
No, you are wrong again. The maths is all lovely and ingenious. I fully agree with the maths. It's the concepts that are self-contradictory, self-defeating and physically impossible.
Maths is about quantities and their ratios. The ideas behind the maths are about properties and their relations. Vast difference. Before measuring and counting, the measured and counted has to be properly defined. If the definitions are poor, the result of best calculations presents nothing but quantities of absent qualities and ratios of impossible relations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by DrJones*, posted 07-16-2011 1:44 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 2304 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 90 of 297 (624145)
07-16-2011 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Alfred Maddenstein
07-16-2011 6:42 AM


Re: what are the extra dimensions in aid of?
I'm sorry, Alfred, but your own writing reveals exactly how much understanding you possess, and all the bluster and bravdo in the world cannot disguise its vacuity. Directing you to a published textbook is not exactly an appeal to authority, and your thinking that it is simply reveals more of your crank mindset. And I do not appeal to others' authority: having worked with two of the three authors, I have enough of my own

Anyone wanting to know why String Theory requires extra dimensions would do well to check out this old post of mine Message 99. Lots of good stuff in the preceding messages as well...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 6:42 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 07-16-2011 6:54 PM cavediver has responded

  
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