Summations Only

Buz writes:
The still unanswered question was whether you've seen either the singularity or the BB expansion. What did it look like, from the time of the alleged singularity up until the present time? For how long have you actually observed a verified net increase in the entropy of the Universe?Would an increase in complexity, order and design from chaotic soup billions of years ago to that which is observe be indicative of observing a net increase in entropy of the Universe? If so, how so?Have you actually observed how far beyond the range of our instruments the Universe extends? This has already debated, relative to the fact that that 2LoT allows for work, via an intelligent engineer affecting the entropy of the universe, as per the Buzsaw's Infinite ID Universe.

The same amount of time we've observed an absence of flocks of winged pigs playing on flaming tubas. Of course. Every time we see anything increasing in complexity, order, or design, it does so in a way that increases the net entropy of the universe.

Take a moment to look around you Buz. Every single event and activity you can see is contributing to increasing, never decreasing, entropy. Do you understand this? Do you dispute this?You need to answer this simple question if anything remotely resembling progress is to be made here. According to the 2LoT it looked like a system continually increasing in entropy. For as long as observations of anything have been made. The 2nd law of thermodynamics in it's most succinct form is simply ds > 0. I.e. the change in entropy is always positive. There are no observed violations of this. Yes (although your use of the phrase "chaotic soup" is misplaced) By progressing from a state of low entropy to state of higher entropy in a manner consistent with every observation ever made. No. Are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting ALL of the observed increases in entropy by causing entropy reductions in some area of the universe that is unseen and unobservable? When you say "affecting" are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting ALL of the observed increases in entropy by causing corresponding reductions in entropy in some unseen and unobservable way? The 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that it is not possible to do work to reduce entropy locally without contributing to a net increase in the entropy of the universe as a whole. The 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that entropy only ever increases, never decreases, overall. No violations of this have ever been observed. If the universe has existed for eternity (as you tell us it has) then according to the second law of thermodynamics the universe would necessarily be in a state of maximum entropy (i.e. heat death)Now you posit the reason for the universe NOT being in a state of maximum entropy to be that some supernatural entity is constantly "managing" the energy within the closed system that is the universe. Given that we have only ever observed increases in entropy and never decreases the only way this supernatural entity of yours can avoid a state a maximum entropy is by undertaking acts of 2nd law defying entropy reversals isn't it?Whether you realise it or not this entity as you have described it would necessitate continual violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Your model necessitates that such violations occur.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

I think one of the problems is buzz's inability to understand what the word entropy means. He is throwing out all of science because he misunderstands a word.

Frankly this almost goes without saying.But being the eternal optimist that I am my hope is that even Buz will start to get a glimmer of why it is that his eternal universe cannot possibly comply with the second law of thermodynamics.Put simply - A non-expanding universe which has existed for eternity and in which every single change in entropy is positive will necessarily be in a state of maximum entropy.

Please explain this and post a reliable link source which agrees.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't write that. Dr Adequate did.But frankly any link on thermodynamics or entropy will tell you this if you understand it because that (essentially) is what the 2nd LoT is.Perhaps it would aid understanding if you gave us a specific example of something increasing in "complexity order or design" which you think results in a decrease in net entropy and then we can tell you step by step why the change in entropy will actually be positive.

Stragger you are posting blind, unsupported assertions, choosing to ignore some aspects of my hypothesis. You need to show how you arrive at statements such as the above.For example, you know that 2LoT allows for engineered ID work within the system. You know that my hypothesis includes an eternal ID engineer eternally managing the system.You should know that at least some evidence which I have posted over the 8 years is supportive to the existence of Jehovah, the Biblical god. Whether or not you believe the evidence is reliable, at least, that is what my hypothesis states.In response to my messages, you should either just say you don't believe my premise and move on or respond on the basis of what my hypothesis so as to falsify my position, as I have stated it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Buz but I must have missed that post. Do you have a link to where you actually provided any evidence supportive to the existence of Jehovah, the Biblical god?

My apologies for the reply mistake.This, again, is a blind assertion. You need to link your source and highlight in it precisely what falsifies my position.I've already posted and highlighted where Wiki, on 2LoT allows for a working designer. Now I want one that contradicts that and an explanation as to how mine is falsified.What I am asking is what I am required to do. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. No?

So - just to be clear - You think the second law of thermodynamics tells us that entropy always increases EXCEPT when intelligent beings decide to impose order in the world and reduce net entropy in doing so.Is this what you think?Is this the misapprehension that you are asking us to relieve you of?

Take a moment to look around you Buz. Every single event and activity you can see is contributing to increasing, never decreasing, entropy. Do you understand this? Do you dispute this?You need to answer this simple question if anything remotely resembling progress is to be made here. I do know that.What you haven't told us is how this designer is counteracting all of the observed increases in entropy.

The problem is what the 2lot doesn't allow for is a global decrease in entropy though. If a designer work within a closed system (like the Universe) and is also part of it, then whatever the intelligent designer does, the entropy will increase. Why do you want science to agree with you? It's obvious you think religion is superior to science so there's no need for you to misrepresent science so that it agrees with you.

Any change within the system would affect the net of the whole system. No? If not, how so?

Buz, instead of being cryptic all the time why don't you explain your point. Are you claiming that your "intelligent designer" can decrease the total entropy of the universe ? Just by doing work ? Indefinitely with only a finite amount of energy ? If not, then what is the point of bringing it up at all ?