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Author Topic:   Alternative history... (what if Jesus Christ hadn't been crucified?)
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4537 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 12 of 18 (622858)
07-06-2011 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Nuggin
07-06-2011 8:56 AM


Most likely outcome.
Nuggin writes:
So, let's assume for a second that there was a historical figure Jesus and he died at the end of a Roman sword or was thrown in prison and never heard from again.
The Bible would still read verbatim as it does today.
Well, let's set aside for the moment the fact that the Romans didn't imprison criminals as a general rule, but only confined them until such time as they could be sent on to be enslaved, crucified, enrolled in a gladiatorial school, or just turned into tiger bait in the arena. An efficient lot, those Romans.
I essentially agree with Nuggin. "Christian" scriptures without Christ might feature a few different names and stories, but I don't think that some sort of evangelical monotheism could have been held back forever. However, monotheism might have evolved into something more philosophical and less evangelical, like Neoplatonism without all the absurd attempts by the early Christians to shoehorn their nonsensical mythology into Plato's philosophy. The geopolitical forces that eventually broke up the Western Empire into various Gothic and Frankish states were probably unstoppable, but an enlightened Eastern Empire based in Constantinople would have held together and preserved the Greek culture and science that the Christians felt obliged to obliterate.
End result? No Renaissance because no loss of Greek culture, and the emergence of the real scientific method at least a thousand years earlier than it did in our timeline. Without the Christian church to smother learning and experimentation with its dogma, it's entirely possible that we'd have a far more enlightened and advanced civilization today. Native civilizations in the Western hemisphere, descendants of the Aztec and Maya, receiving technology from Europe instead of disease and slavery? Maybe. Spaceships on Mars in the equivalent of our 14th century, instead of Europe losing a third of its population to the Black Death? Who knows?
Of course, it's also entirely possible that, humans being what they are, we would have found another equally ignorant and destructive path to follow, and we'd be no better off than we are now. But it's fun to consider a world without Baptists and Republicans, anyway.

Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Nuggin, posted 07-06-2011 8:56 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Nuggin, posted 07-06-2011 11:09 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4537 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 15 of 18 (622866)
07-07-2011 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Chuck77
07-07-2011 12:26 AM


Re: Off Topic
Well, with all due respect, the question that I think you want to ask is nonsensical. If you want us to grant the premise that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died for the remission of sins, then it makes no sense to ask what would have happened if he hadn't died. If he hadn't, then he wouldn't have been Jesus. You're asking us to consent to and then deny the central belief of Christianity. Does not compute.
No, I understand Nuggin's point to be that for all intents and purposes, Jesus is a fictional character, perhaps based on a real person, perhaps not. In that case asking what would have happened if Jesus hadn't been crucified is like asking what would have happened if King Arthur hadn't been killed by his bastard son, Mordred. Well, even if Arthur is based on a 5th century native Briton or Roman war leader, whatever did or didn't "actually" happen to him makes no difference at all to the legends as we know them.
For my part, I thought that the more interesting question was to ponder what the world would have been like had the idea of evangelical monotheism not taken hold in Western civilization at all. Asking that question takes a middle ground that accepts Jesus as an historical personage, but then posits that without the part in the story where he dies and comes back to life, the idea of his coming to save us all from sin by dying for us would be missing, and all you have is yet another apocalyptic Jewish rabbi and Christianity as such never happens. Whether another brand of evangelical monotheism would have arisen instead is an open question.
ABE: Oops, I didn't see that this isn't your original question, but Dirk's. My criticisms should be directed to him, not you, Chuck.
Edited by ZenMonkey, : No reason given.

Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric
Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Chuck77, posted 07-07-2011 12:26 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
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