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Author Topic:   Alternative history... (what if Jesus Christ hadn't been crucified?)
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Joined: 05-02-2006
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Message 16 of 18 (622867)
07-07-2011 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dirk
07-05-2011 9:20 PM

The Last Starship From Earth. In the present (novel was published in the late 60's), we have an advanced civilization, because the Dark Ages never happened. An excerpt from Lincoln's "Johannesburg Address" calling for nuclear disarmament was included. A theocracy was in place, the Pope was a computer, and Hell was a frozen planet that we would banish heretics to aboard a functioning starship. And Christianity's symbol was the crossbow, since that was what Jesus was killed by at the Battle of Masada at about the age of 80. A heretic is sent to Hell which turns out to be a nice place filled with people who want to bring down the theocracy, so they send him back in time to change history, which he does by faking Jesus' death on the cross and then sends him back to Hell instead of himself. To his horror, he has created our form of Christianity resulting in our low level of technology and culture.

Those who fail to learn the lessons of science fiction are doomed to live them.

On another note, Suds, a mathematician on CompuServe who would basically support the ideas of word-magic, once posted something that actually made sense. It doesn't matter whether Christianity is true or not. Because everybody believed it to be true and acted accordingly, it had the same influence on western civilization that it would have had if it were actually true.

Christianity started as a mystery religion and had to have the requisite mythic elements. Which means that it had to have the death and resurrection regardless of what actually did or did not happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dirk, posted 07-05-2011 9:20 PM Dirk has not yet responded

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Message 17 of 18 (622886)
07-07-2011 7:41 AM

Warning - Participants Please Read
This topic is a simple exercise in speculation concerning the story presented in the New Testament. Message 1

It is not about whether Jesus existed or whether the Bible is fact or fiction.
It is not about whether the story of Jesus is a myth or not.
It isn't about whether the New Testament would have been written the same or not.

The point is: What if Jesus hadn't been crucified?

A strong reminder that this is the Faith and Belief Forum, not the Free For All. This is not the humor thread and it isn't a chat page. Please adjust accordingly.

Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List') thread.

Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.

Thank you
AdminPD Purple

Edited by AdminPD, : Reopened Thread added response warning

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Message 18 of 18 (629094)
08-15-2011 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by purpledawn
07-06-2011 7:15 PM

Forgiveness 2.0 (standard forgiveness greek testament style)
According to the New Testament, Jesus died for our sins (or at least of those who wish to believe it). But what would have happened if the Romans hadn't crucified him, but simply put him in jail for life?

pd writes:

God would have continued to forgive people by his standard methods explained by Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18:21-22
“But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.”

According to the Latter testaments, the casting of Joshua's ritual atonement killing was officially sanctioned and being touted by the supposed prophet and certified high priest Yosef Bar Kayafa (Matisyahu 26:3; John 11:48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53) against Joshua's will and advisement (Matisyahu 9:13, 12:7, 26:1(2)), as some sort of an alleged whole offering blood sacrifice apparently based on a legalistic regulation of the 'ToRaH of Moshe' (according to Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, etc.).

This is the setting as Joshua storms the Yuhdean countryside freely forgiving sins, jarring the extant economy of salvation, all the while being hunted down by certain religious dogmatics (Mark 14:1; Luke 13:31, 22:2 ) and finally murdered by Caesar's ruthless militia as a result of some special pleading arranged to circumvent the laws of the province.

That said, Ezekiel is continually addressed as the 'Son of man' and the phrase is employed within his booklet roughly eighty times; more than five times as often as all the other books within the Original testaments combined.

Likewise, Joshua the Anointed One is also pictured referencing himself as the Son of man quite often, with this title of sorts actually dominating his self-reflective discussions, particularly in the booklet of John.

And so, it seems only natural to allow the words within the narrative attributed to Joshua the opportunity to speak to the context of how a sin can be forgiven without necessitating a homicide.

After all, before he was murdered, Brother Joshua poured out his wisdom to teach every man and woman how sins are removed; however, Joshua never discussed any penal substitution method whatsoever.

He attested that if you forgive others the Father will forgive you (no penal substitution or blood required).

Matisyahu 6:14
For if you forgive others their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Brother Joshua displayed that he had authority to forgive sins through bold faith alone (no penal substitution or blood required).
Luke 5:19
When they found no way to carry him in because of the crowd,
they went up on the roof and let him down on the stretcher through the roof tiles right in front of Joshua
20 ~ When Joshua saw their faith he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

The Anointed One declared an abundance of love may attain forgiveness ... again, no penal substitution or blood required.

Luke 7:47
Therefore I tell you, her sins, which were many, are forgiven, thus she loved much; but the one who is forgiven little loves little.

Within the text of 1 John, we are told to repent, confess our sins and they will be forgiven (no penal substitution or blood required).

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness.

Perhaps Brother Joshua and the author of 1 John had taken the time to read Ezekiel and the rest of the Prophets & Psalms, etc. ...
Psalms 32:5
Then I confessed my sin; I no longer covered up my wrongdoing.
I said
, “I will confess my rebellious acts to the Lord.”

And then you forgave my sins. (Selah)

One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by purpledawn, posted 07-06-2011 7:15 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

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