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Author Topic:   too intelligent to actually be intelligent?
Member (Idle past 4543 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003

Message 301 of 304 (391899)
03-27-2007 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by GDR
03-27-2007 10:00 PM

Re: Atheism vs disagreeing philosophies

The universe came into being out of nothingness, approximately 14 billion years ago.

This does not mean that it cannot have occurred naturally since there are models that show how our universe can arise naturally from nothingness. As you can read here at this site


For a somewhat more in depth {read mathematical} discussion by the same author check this site. http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Godless/Origin.pdf

Despite massive improbabilities, the properties of the universe appear to have been precisely tuned for life.

In retrospect we can always look to find "massive improbabilities" since with each event that occurs far vaster numbers of events that could have occurred are eliminated.
Now, if in another scenario there were a universe in which no life forms were present at all, and we were to use our imagination to place ourselves in this new lifeless universe and check out the properties of the universe that unfolded then among all the possible probabilities is the outcome there any more improbable than our own?
Now we have to ask exactly what are the probabilities to which we can say something is improbable or not and just how do we arrive at these probabilities?

While the precise mechanism of the origin of life on earth remains unknown, once life arose, the process of evolution and natural selection permitted the development of biological diversity and complexity over long periods of time.

But the precise mechanism of the origin is not something that we cannot speculate about and given that physics shows us the rules that govern chemistry which in turn govern biology we can follow the evidence to see if the rules of physics generalize out to include things like music and love as well as heartbeats and respiration.

Once evolution got underway, no special supernatural intervention was required.

No supernatural intervention is known to be necessary to originate life either.

Humans are part of this process, sharing a common ancestor with the great apes.

Seems to be correct.

But humans are also unique in ways that defy evolutionary explanation and point to our spiritual nature. This includes the existence of the Moral Law (the knowledge of right and wrong) and the search for God that characterizes all human cultures throughout history.

That is great! However, the problem here is that there is no elaboration on the statement so we cannot evaluate why this defies evolutionary explanations. Nor is there evidence given to how Moral Law is incapable of being an evolved trait either.

Now accepting without critical examination is a poor way to judge the validity of an arguement since, after all, one would expect the premises to be capable of withstanding scrutiny. Does Collins address any of my points or does he simply make the statements and hope no one will question these?

``A paradox is not a conflict within reality. It is a conflict between
reality and your feeling of what reality should be like.''

- Richard Feynman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by GDR, posted 03-27-2007 10:00 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by GDR, posted 03-27-2007 11:38 PM sidelined has not yet responded

Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005

Message 302 of 304 (391906)
03-27-2007 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by sidelined
03-27-2007 11:26 PM

Re: Atheism vs disagreeing philosophies
I'll answer quickly before they shut this thread down. I don't see and neither does Collins that those 6 points constitute an argument for Theistic Evolution. The preceding sentence is this: "There are many subtle variants of theistic evolution, but a typical version rests upon the following premises.

The points are just an outline of the beliefs of an theistic evoluntionist. The quote comes from his book "The Language of God". The whole book is used to provide the rationale for his believing as he does.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by sidelined, posted 03-27-2007 11:26 PM sidelined has not yet responded

Posts: 3998
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005

Message 303 of 304 (391929)
03-28-2007 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by crashfrog
03-27-2007 11:36 AM

Re: Evolution -- God's Design
Don't forget the adult dragon is a 9th level sorcerer, too. DR10/magic is pretty good, with an SR of 23, Breath Weapon DC 28. It can use blind sight to counter the invisible flying flayer.

Grapple a guargantuan creature?

Dragons are stupidly tough.

Quite right, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by crashfrog, posted 03-27-2007 11:36 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Posts: 3931
Joined: 09-26-2002

Message 304 of 304 (391932)
03-28-2007 3:38 AM

300+ - Closing time
Was it on-topic when it closed?

Was it on-topic somewhere in the last 20 messages?

I don't know - I didn't read it - But I'm betting mostly off-topic.


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