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Author Topic:   Great Debaters
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 16 of 53 (623951)
07-14-2011 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by rueh
07-14-2011 12:37 PM


This would be a good read since they are both such master debaters and cunning linguists.
Just so you know it didn't go wasted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by rueh, posted 07-14-2011 12:37 PM rueh has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 53 (623957)
07-14-2011 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-12-2011 4:51 PM


Re: Great Debates
Straggler writes:
Oni and Buz on cosmology - Coz it'd be funny, good natured and potentially informative in a head banging kinda way.
Buz banned from science, period, including ID stuff. True creationist debate on science a no-no here at EvC (Evolution vs Creation. ) Pseudo-creationist stuff ok.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 07-12-2011 4:51 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Coyote, posted 07-14-2011 11:34 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2187 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 18 of 53 (623960)
07-14-2011 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
07-14-2011 10:45 PM


Re: Great Debates
Buz banned from science, period, including ID stuff. True creationist debate on science a no-no here at EvC (Evolution vs Creation. ) Pseudo-creationist stuff ok.
Buz, the reason for this is that for you, scripture et al. is the highest form of knowledge.
That is not the case in science. Science demands real evidence, and most importantly, evidence that can be tested by others.
(See tagline...)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 07-14-2011 10:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 07-15-2011 10:21 PM Coyote has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 19 of 53 (624058)
07-15-2011 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Modulous
07-13-2011 5:33 PM


Mod writes:
That said, I vote for Mod and somebody since I've never had opportunity for a Great Debate.
That doesn't seem right! Maybe we can rectify it.
To put you on the spot (ignore if you like) - Who would you like to Great Debate and on what topic?
Mod writes:
I concur I'd like to see Dr A and RAZD.
Potentially a classic. The escalating levels of sarcasm alone would be worth the entry fee.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Modulous, posted 07-13-2011 5:33 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Modulous, posted 07-29-2011 10:54 AM Straggler has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 53 (624094)
07-15-2011 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Coyote
07-14-2011 11:34 PM


Re: Great Debaters
Coyote writes:
Buzsaw writes:
Buz banned from science, period, including ID stuff. True creationist debate on science a no-no here at EvC (Evolution vs Creation. ) Pseudo-creationist stuff ok.
Buz, the reason for this is that for you, scripture et al. is the highest form of knowledge.
That is not the case in science. Science demands real evidence, and most importantly, evidence that can be tested by others.
Coyote, I've come to Bolderdash's insinuation that the reason is that sometimes the quickest and easiest way for the powers that be here at EvC town to silence the most effective great debaters of the creationist constituency has been to either stalk, harass and ban them from where they do the most damage to the majority secularist constituency or just flat out permanently ban them.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Coyote, posted 07-14-2011 11:34 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Coyote, posted 07-15-2011 10:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2187 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 21 of 53 (624095)
07-15-2011 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
07-15-2011 10:21 PM


Re: Great Debaters
Coyote writes:
Buzsaw writes:
Buz banned from science, period, including ID stuff. True creationist debate on science a no-no here at EvC (Evolution vs Creation. ) Pseudo-creationist stuff ok.
Buz, the reason for this is that for you, scripture et al. is the highest form of knowledge.
That is not the case in science. Science demands real evidence, and most importantly, evidence that can be tested by others.
Coyote, I've come to Bolderdash's insinuation that the reason is that sometimes the quickest and easiest way for the powers that be here at EvC town to silence the most effective great debaters of the creationist constituency has been to either stalk, harass and ban them from where they do the most damage to the majority secularist constituency or just flat out permanently ban them.
Buz, when one is debating a topic in science it is appropriate to bring scientific evidence and to use scientific methods.
When you do religious apologetics you can use whatever methods and evidence they allow.
It is best not to confuse the two.
Belief does not constitute scientific evidence. (Hey, that would be a good tagline!).
One of the main problems in the science forums is creationists who substitute belief (and use pseudo science to support it) for real science. When the problems are explained, with supporting evidence, said creationists tend to fall back on belief and ignore the empirical evidence.
This leads to a serious disconnect.
You can preach and proselytize all you want in the religious forums, but you have to realize that neither constitutes scientific evidence. When you or other creationists debate science you really do have to follow the rules of science, and to bring empirical evidence.
Otherwise you end up as religion has, with some 40,000 different worldwide religions and close to that many sects, branches, and subdivisions of Christianity alone. The reason for that is religions rely on belief, revelation, scripture and individual interpretation rather than empirical evidence and established rules for deciding which, of various competing claims, is likely to be wrong.
Or, as Heinlein noted, "Belief gets in the way of learning."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 07-15-2011 10:21 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 07-16-2011 2:54 PM Coyote has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 22 of 53 (624104)
07-16-2011 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-12-2011 4:51 PM


Reversi
Perhaps it might also be interesting to see our esteemed members take a totally opposite view and debate that view against a similarily opposite view..
For example, let's say Straggler takes the YEC Creationist ID viewpoint and Buzsaw takes the Evolutionary/ordinary random mutation viewpoint.
I wouldn't expect this sort of an experiment to last very long, but there might be an entertaining exchange for those of us watching from the peanut gallery.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 07-12-2011 4:51 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 9:56 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3032 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 23 of 53 (624153)
07-16-2011 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-12-2011 4:51 PM


Oni and Buz on cosmology - Coz it'd be funny, good natured and potentially informative in a head banging kinda way.
Can you say "1000 posts and nothing accomplished"...? Lol
Mod and Percy debate anything that they can fnd to fundamentally disagree upon - Intellectual curiosity.
I'd rather watch two old ladies argue a over game of Bridge! No offense to either dude but, we need some action...some fire in a great debate. It's no fun if the debate ends in a handshake and a mutual respect of one another. Gross.
Here are my votes:
quote:
Rrhain vs Catholic Sci on whether or not the puffy shirt/peter pan look is gay.
Straggler vs RAZD in a staring match via Skype. Best 3 of 5
Jar vs Ringo - any topic - but all posts must be answered in 6 words or less.
Taz vs Oni in a who can pretend to love the gays the most debate.
Buzsaw vs Coyote to become the next Fox News pundit - (the topic is The Left, how wrong are they?)
Dr. A vs Stephen Colbert in a punchline match to the death.
Crashfrog vs Rahvin in a who knows the most about everything debate.
ICANT vs ICANT on which one is the smartest. Est posts: 3,657. Result: inconclusive.
Moose vs Larni on something cat related that they disagree on. No one will follow this debate.
Percy vs Dennis Markuze for ownership of EvC.
Straggler vs Oni in an old school B-Boy break dancing challenge. The winner is the one who gets up in the morning with the least amount of pain.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 07-12-2011 4:51 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 9:47 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 41 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-19-2011 2:10 AM onifre has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 24 of 53 (624158)
07-16-2011 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by onifre
07-16-2011 9:06 AM


Oni writes:
Can you say "1000 posts and nothing accomplished"...? Lol
Sounds like a summary of my EvC participation.
Oni writes:
I'd rather watch two old ladies argue a over game of Bridge!
Have you ever seen two old ladies fight over a game of bridge? It is not for the faint hearted.
Oni writes:
No offense to either dude but, we need some action...some fire in a great debate. It's no fun if the debate ends in a handshake and a mutual respect of one another. Gross.
True. True. Point well made. Point taken.
Oni writes:
Here are my votes:
How about Oni vs Petrophysics on morality and lifestyle choices?
Oni writes:
Straggler vs Oni in an old school B-Boy break dancing challenge. The winner is the one who gets up in the morning with the least amount of pain.
Webcams at the ready.........And BRRREEEAAAKKKK
(**Straggler starts popping and bopping to the beat**)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by onifre, posted 07-16-2011 9:06 AM onifre has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 25 of 53 (624159)
07-16-2011 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by xongsmith
07-16-2011 12:15 AM


Re: Reversi
X writes:
Perhaps it might also be interesting to see our esteemed members take a totally opposite view and debate that view against a similarily opposite view..
It's an interesting idea. You could argue that a really good debater should be able to argue both sides of anything.
X writes:
For example, let's say Straggler takes the YEC Creationist ID viewpoint and Buzsaw takes the Evolutionary/ordinary random mutation viewpoint.
When Percy was looking for a creationist partner for (now suspended member) Faith I offered to try and take the creationist side with her as a sort of intellectual challenge. Percy considered it but ultimately wasn't convinced it was viable. On reflection I think he was right. The danger is that you just present a caricature of the position you don't really hold.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by xongsmith, posted 07-16-2011 12:15 AM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 07-16-2011 1:05 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 28 by dwise1, posted 07-16-2011 1:59 PM Straggler has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 53 (624182)
07-16-2011 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Straggler
07-16-2011 9:56 AM


mirror mirror on the wall
The danger is that you just present a caricature of the position you don't really hold.
lol
. . .which would be different for you how? You already have argued against caricatures of arguments made by others rather than address the actual arguments, so wouldn't that just complete the process?
Curiously, we commonly tell creationist noobs to study some biology if they are going to argue against evolution -- to KNOW the information they are criticizing.
Of course it would help to have an open mind to take an opposite position.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 9:56 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 1:41 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 27 of 53 (624187)
07-16-2011 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RAZD
07-16-2011 1:05 PM


Re: mirror mirror on the wall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 07-16-2011 1:05 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5972
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 28 of 53 (624191)
07-16-2011 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Straggler
07-16-2011 9:56 AM


Re: Reversi
You could argue that a really good debater should be able to argue both sides of anything.
As I had always been taught about debating, you are supposed to be able to argue either side of any issue. It's all about the art of argumentation and not about the issues themselves.
Having a YEC argue for evolution and an "evolutionist" argue the YEC side would be interesting. I would anticipate that the YEC's presentation will be filled with gross misinformation and warped misunderstanding of what he's arguing for, based on his already existing warped misunderstanding of evolution and science. I anticipate that the "evolutionist's" YEC presentation will be filled with lies and deception and thus be indistinguishable from a real YEC's presentation of the same.
One mistake that I anticipate an evolutionist playing YEC would make would be to take the claims too seriously, in which case he may try to analyze them and present a too lucid and detailed account of the claims. Even worse, he may be more likely to allow himself to be drawn into discussing and defending the claims, something that real creationists know to avoid at all costs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 9:56 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 2:11 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 29 of 53 (624193)
07-16-2011 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by dwise1
07-16-2011 1:59 PM


Re: Reversi
dwise writes:
As I had always been taught about debating, you are supposed to be able to argue either side of any issue. It's all about the art of argumentation and not about the issues themselves.
Yeah - In a competetive debate you simply get given the position you are going to argue and have to make the case whether you agree with it or not.
Dwise writes:
Having a YEC argue for evolution and an "evolutionist" argue the YEC side would be interesting.
there might well be merit in Xongsmith's suggestion. I am not sure but willing to find out. It would be interesting whether it works or not.
Any suggestions as to who or what would make a good "reverse posittion" Great Debate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by dwise1, posted 07-16-2011 1:59 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by hooah212002, posted 07-16-2011 2:37 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 07-16-2011 3:04 PM Straggler has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 883 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 30 of 53 (624199)
07-16-2011 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Straggler
07-16-2011 2:11 PM


Re: Reversi
Wouldn't a good evo candidate be a former fundie?

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 2:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 07-16-2011 2:43 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
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