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Author Topic:   Question on genetic information
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 20 of 32 (374642)
01-05-2007 4:59 AM


As has been pointed out, creationists making this argument don't give a quantitative defintion of "information". This means that we can't test the claim that mutations don't increase "information"; and we can't analyse the claim that evolution requires the increase of "information".
So it would seem at first glance that like so much creationist rhetoric, it's so ill-defined as to be completely meaningless.
For example, the particular article you cite defines "information" as follows:
INFORMATION - What is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things : genetically transmitted information.
This does not allow us to compare the quantity of "information" in two genomes, or to decide whether a given mutation increases or decreases the "information". This same author writes that:
[Information] has to be increased for the theory of evolution to be plausible.
(My emphasis).
And yet this author doesn't say how we can measure how much "information" is contained in a genome, nor how we may calculate whether this "information" is created or destroyed by any particular mutation.
He demands that evolution should "increase" the amount of "information", but doesn't trouble to tell us how to measure the amount of "information".
---
It seems almost as though the creationists are simply mouthing meaningless phrases. However, we can show that creationist claims are false according to any reasonable definition of "information". Stop me if I'm, wrong, but I would say that:
By any reasonable definition of "information", two completely identical genomes must contain the same amount of "information".
What follows from this?
Well, every mutation has an inverse. A point mutation can be undone by an opposite point mutation. An insertion can be undone by a deletion. A frame shift can be reversed by another frame shift. And so forth.
In general, if there is a series of mutations which gets you from genome (a) to genome (b), then there is also a series of mutations which gets you from genome (b) to genome (a).
So, if it is claimed that some series of mutations --- from (a) to (b) --- destroys "information", then the reverse sequence of mutations which get you from (b) to (a) must create "information". Because otherwise you could go from (a) to (b) and then back to (a) with a net destruction of "information". But (a) and (a) are the same genome, and so must have the same amount of "information", by the principle we set down above --- two completely identical genomes must contain the same amount of "information"..
So if some mutations detroy "information", other mutations must create "information".
---
If you are astute, you might think that you see a loophole here. A creationist might argue that in fact "information" can neither be created nor destroyed by mutation, but must be conserved. Now, if this was true, it would be true, in particular, of any series of deletion mutations. If mutation could neither create nor destroy information, then deleting any part (or the whole) of a genome would not destroy any "information".
But if that is true, then no genome contains any "information", and then the claim that "mutations can't create information" is irrelevant, since in that case mutations can create any genome you please without creating "information" as so defined.
---
In summary, if "information" is defined in any way we can measure, either there is no "information" in the genome, and so we don't have to explain how it got there; or there is "information" in the genome, and mutation can increase it as well as decrease it.
And if, as is invariably the case, "information" is not quantatively defined, then the creationists don't even have an argument.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by platypus, posted 01-07-2007 9:10 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 30 of 32 (377865)
01-18-2007 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by platypus
01-07-2007 9:10 PM


Re: Dr. Adequate
The argument has one more possibility, stemming from the origin of the information argument, which was in the second law of thermodynamics. Namely, Information (like entropy) can only stay teh same or decrease, it can never increase. Since point mutuations are reversible, creationists can argue that point mutations conserve information (like reversible thermodynamic transitions converse entropy). But major changes will only cause a decrease in information.
But the same "major change", whatever that consists of, would, in reverse, increase information.If the major change consists of a reduplication, a frame shift, five point mutations and a deletion, and it decreases "information", then a "major change" involving an insertion, five point mutations, a frame shift and a deletion will increase information.
...
Now, if the creationists wish to concede that mutations which increase information are possible in principle, but that as at matter of fact, they do not occur, then we have to ask: how the heck does that happen? Mutations are random. There aren't enough zeros in the world to express the odds against that --- which I could calculate if only they produced a definition of "information".
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by platypus, posted 01-07-2007 9:10 PM platypus has not replied

  
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