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Author Topic:   United States Debt Default
crashfrog
Member
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 196 of 209 (627417)
08-02-2011 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Jon
08-02-2011 12:17 PM


Re: One Word
Jon, lately I've been sensing a bit of a sea change in your political views.

Is that something you would like to comment on?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Jon, posted 08-02-2011 12:17 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Jon, posted 08-02-2011 12:38 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 209 (627418)
08-02-2011 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by crashfrog
08-02-2011 12:37 PM


Re: One Word
Jon, lately I've been sensing a bit of a sea change in your political views.

Is that something you would like to comment on?

I haven't sensed a change. If you'd describe what you think has changed, then I'd be glad to comment.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by crashfrog, posted 08-02-2011 12:37 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 198 of 209 (627419)
08-02-2011 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Jon
08-02-2011 12:38 PM


Re: One Word
all i know is the republicans have no redeeming social value for the majority of us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Jon, posted 08-02-2011 12:38 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 209 (628241)
08-08-2011 12:32 AM


Credit Downgrade
Seems like the place to put this.

S&P downgraded the U.S. from AAA to AA as a result of this fiasco.

What, if any, fallout is likely from this?

Jon


Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by AZPaul3, posted 08-08-2011 2:59 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4854
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 200 of 209 (628249)
08-08-2011 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Jon
08-08-2011 12:32 AM


Re: Credit Downgrade
What, if any, fallout is likely from this?

Nothing yet. If the other two agencies, Moody's and Fitch, follow suit then that may have an impact on bond interest rates leading to interest rate increases across the economy. But only slightly.

The biggest impact is to the ego of the nation. Unfortunately, I do not think it will be enough to move congress, the administration, national politics or the public to address the underlying cause of the downgrade which is we borrow too damn much. No one wants to lose their place at the federal trough and no one wants to ante up more cash for taxes. Our political system is geared more towards giving us what we want want want than towards any fiscal discipline.

The real pain is yet to come when the rating agencies downgrade our debt yet again, then again, in this next decade.


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 Message 199 by Jon, posted 08-08-2011 12:32 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by DBlevins, posted 08-08-2011 5:48 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 2227 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 201 of 209 (628310)
08-08-2011 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by AZPaul3
08-08-2011 2:59 AM


Re: Credit Downgrade
... the public to address the underlying cause of the downgrade which is we borrow too damn much.

Nevermind the glaring $2 trillion dollar mistake that S&P made in it's calculations. The underlying cause as stated in S&P's paper is the intransigence of the republicans to even consider revenue increases.

In fact, revenue as a percentage of GDP is the lowest it's been in 60 years. The real underlying cause of this is our low effective tax rate (The Bush tax cuts just eviscerated our budget balance), the recession, and the fact that corporations have been shifting manufacturing to areas where it is easier for them to exploit workers, the environment, and governments. U.S. coporations are sitting pretty with the largest amount of tax reserves in U.S. history. We could do something about it, but our government is captured by corporate money and republican talking points about being "taxed too much." But if you take Germany, for example, they have tighter regulations, stronger unions, and they tax their corporations at a higher rate. Despite this, their unemployment rate is about 6% versus ours at 9.2% (14% if you count underemployed).

The sad part about this so-called "debt crisis" is the degree that it is just a manufactured crisis. Our debt to GDP ratio is less than France's and they have a AAA rating. Investor's know this. They know that our deficit will return to the black as the economy recovers, and we remove the Bush tax cuts and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq end. Otherwise investors would have fled treasuries, but instead, investors gobbled them up. Why do that if you're concerned about our ability to pay our bills?

There is little danger that we are going to suffer further downgrades as you seem to indicate. In fact, the S&P indicated that they would put back our AAA rating if we allow the Bush Tax cuts on the highest earners to lapse in 2013, as they are supposed to do.

Edited by DBlevins, : formatting paragraphs


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by AZPaul3, posted 08-08-2011 2:59 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
crashfrog
Member
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 202 of 209 (873924)
03-21-2020 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by crashfrog
07-23-2011 2:12 AM


I was, of course, right about platinum coins:
Here's the text of Congresswoman Rashida Talib's "Automatic BOOST to Communities Act":

IV. Funding the Program
a. This Automatic BOOST to Communities Act would be a money-financed fiscal program for
which no additional U.S. debt would be issued.
b. Instead, the program would be funded directly from the Treasury, using its legal authority to
create money via coin seigniorage, which is a statutory delegation of Congress’s
constitutional power of the purse.
c. The mechanics of this funding approach would be as follows:
• The Treasury Secretary would direct the U.S. Mint to issue two $1 trillion platinum
coins, under the legal authority provided by 31 U.S.C. § 5112(k).

• Congress would direct the Federal Reserve to purchase the newly issued coins at full face
value.

• The Federal Reserve would complete the purchase by crediting the U.S. Mint’s account
at the Fed with $2 trillion in reserves.
• The Fed would retain ownership over the two $1 trillion coins permanently in order to
ensure its own balance sheet remains fully capitalized by the Treasury.

https://tlaib.house.gov/...t%20to%20Communities%20Act%20.pdf

Hope you're all doing OK with regards to COVID-19, I know the readership here skews a little to the older side. Take it seriously, stay in, and wash your hands. Evolution is real and this time it's gunning for you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2011 2:12 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by AZPaul3, posted 03-21-2020 3:20 PM crashfrog has responded
 Message 204 by dwise1, posted 03-21-2020 4:15 PM crashfrog has responded
 Message 208 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-22-2020 7:45 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4854
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 203 of 209 (873941)
03-21-2020 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by crashfrog
03-21-2020 11:27 AM


Re: I was, of course, right about platinum coins:
Welcome back, Frog!

The Trillion Dollar Coin ... again? Seriously, how stupid can people get.

Yes, it is legal for an administration to mint such a monstrosity thanks to the unthinking pressures of a political interest group and their undue influence on those geniuses we elect to congress.

So, the mint strikes some $trillion platinum coins, puts them on deposit with the Fed which then credits Treasury’s accounts with $trillions cash.

Note: There is nothing in the law that requires the Fed to "buy" these $trillion coins. The mint could strike them and Fed refuse to take them.

But, if the Fed did it skirts the checks & balances that keeps the government from just willy-nilly churning up the presses and printing $100 bills to its heart’s content. It usurps congress’ role in controlling the nation’s debt (which it doesn’t do but should) by hiding that debt behind a smoke screen and it usurps the role of the Fed in determining monetary policy.

What else does it accomplish?

It just levied a hidden $trillion(s) tax on the society by injecting cash into the economy diluting the absolute value of M1 by increasing the money supply (and outside the monetary policy preview of the Fed which is the ONLY body legally chartered with controlling that policy).

As the government spends its newly acquired windfall, it adds to the inflationary pressures in the economy. The really stupid thing is that, seeing the increased inflationary pressures in the economy, the Fed then must eventually move to counter those pressures by contracting M1. It does this by selling US Treasury Bonds from its inventory and raising interest rates.

Society must absorb this new hidden debt in decreased liquidity and higher interest rates both of which dampen economic activity and tax revenues. You have accomplished nothing.

This Trillion Dollar Platinum coin scheme is nothing but a hoodwink of the society to skirt the checks & balances of our political processes and established monetary systems.

“But it won’t increase the debt!”

Bullshit. The scheme may not show the debt on its face in the usual open politically noticeable way but there is no such thing as a free lunch. If we send then we will pay.

If Talib wants to fund a social program, which I am all for btw, she should do it the open way without the deceptive smoke and mirrors.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by crashfrog, posted 03-21-2020 11:27 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2020 1:57 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4050
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 204 of 209 (873946)
03-21-2020 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by crashfrog
03-21-2020 11:27 AM


Re: I was, of course, right about platinum coins:
... I know the readership here skews a little to the older side. Take it seriously, stay in, and wash your hands. Evolution is real and this time it's gunning for you.

Too late! We've already bred.

For the Darwin Awards to be effective, you need to self-select yourself out of the gene pool before having passed your genes on to the next generation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by crashfrog, posted 03-21-2020 11:27 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2020 1:18 PM dwise1 has responded

  
crashfrog
Member
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 205 of 209 (873966)
03-22-2020 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by dwise1
03-21-2020 4:15 PM


Re: I was, of course, right about platinum coins:
We've already bred.

It does take a particular brand of species-centrism to think I was talking about the evolution of humans.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by dwise1, posted 03-21-2020 4:15 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by dwise1, posted 03-22-2020 7:22 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Member
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 206 of 209 (873968)
03-22-2020 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by AZPaul3
03-21-2020 3:20 PM


Re: I was, of course, right about platinum coins:
Good to know you remain as insensitive to new evidence as ever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by AZPaul3, posted 03-21-2020 3:20 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4050
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 207 of 209 (873972)
03-22-2020 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by crashfrog
03-22-2020 1:18 PM


Re: I was, of course, right about platinum coins:
DWise1 writes:

crashfrog writes:

... I know the readership here skews a little to the older side. Take it seriously, stay in, and wash your hands. Evolution is real and this time it's gunning for you.

We've already bred.

It does take a particular brand of species-centrism to think I was talking about the evolution of humans.

That consideration is completely immaterial to the discussion.

You were directly referring to the older segment of the human population, not the entire human population. Much as I abhor sports, I believe that your maneuver there is called "moving the goalposts".

Here is my entire message at Message 204:

DWise1 writes:

Too late! We've already bred.

For the Darwin Awards to be effective, you need to self-select yourself out of the gene pool before having passed your genes on to the next generation.

A disease that targets the elderly, who have already done all the gene-passing that they ever will (Cary Grant notwithstanding), will have far less impact on a population than a disease that targets the young, who have not yet had any chance to pass on their genes. That applies to all animal species, not just humans.

 
BTW, you've been gone for several years, so I no longer have any context in which to take your messages.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2020 1:18 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5982
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 208 of 209 (873973)
03-22-2020 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by crashfrog
03-21-2020 11:27 AM


Re: I was, of course, right about platinum coins:
Hope you're all doing OK with regards to COVID-19, I know the readership here skews a little to the older side. Take it seriously, stay in, and wash your hands. Evolution is real and this time it's gunning for you.

Greetings and salutations, Frog. Its been a hot minute since you've come around these parts. All levity aside, I strongly concur. Now is not the time to play fast and loose with preparation.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by crashfrog, posted 03-21-2020 11:27 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4854
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 209 of 209 (873974)
03-22-2020 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by dwise1
03-22-2020 7:22 PM


Re: I was, of course, right about platinum coins:
Its been awhile but I think I still remember how to speak frog.

Evolution is real and this time it's gunning for you.

"Evolution" in this case refers to this evolved strain of coronavirus. This product of evolution is coming after us.

And that is quite a correct observation of our present predicament.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by dwise1, posted 03-22-2020 7:22 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
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