Subjective Evidence of Gods

Remember, this thread is about subjective evidence of gods, not just your God. If a book is subjective evidence for your God, then a book is subjective evidence for other gods. Believers will always consider their books to be true.How can you condemn the existence of another god when the believers are using the same type of subjective evidence you claim as support your God? Just because you don't choose to believe their claims, doesn't mean they don't have subjective evidence.

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The Bible. It's the "truth" to me but subjective to you. It's the truth to me because i've experienced the fruit of believing it and acting on what it says.

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You havn't experienced any of that so it's subjective to you.

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That is the point. You have tried to apply some of the teachings of the Bible and they have worked for you. That is subjective because only you know what you did exactly and what came about. The same process won't necessarily work the same way for another person.There are many common sense teachings in the Bible that are not unique to the Bible. The proverbs are words of wisdom from the experiences of the time. Whether they are all still applicable today, I don't know. I haven't read or tried all of them.In times of need, inspiration can be pulled from any book, whether good or bad. There are many thoughts from the Bible that guide people in daily dealings, but they don't necessarily guide others the same way. That's subjective. We can all objectively see the same words on the paper (when looking at the same version of course), but our opinions or reactions won't all be the same. Various people pray to gods for healing or safety, but not all are healed or safe. Various people don't pray for healing or safety, and not all are healed or safe.Unfortunately subjective evidence only works for the individual.This thread isn't about whether the Bible is true or not. You feel there is subjective evidence for your God, but you don't accept the subjective evidence for the gods of others. So if you can't accept theirs, why should they accept yours?Just because you believe the truth of your religious writings, doesn't mean another person can or should believe your truth over what they believe to be true. Then we get back to trying to prove objectively that a specific deity is real and the other is not.You haven't really shown us why subjective evidence is good for your God, but not for the gods of others.

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If I believe all these gods exist then what am I doing living the way I am?

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That's kinda the point. You believe your god exists, but not the others. Why? You don't have to believe in the worship system or that any other god is as powerful as yours, but why don't you believe that they exist? Those believers have the experiences to believe just as you do. How can you say that your god exists and their s doesn't?

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It doesn't mean it's true just because there are books. ...
I think it makes more sense to argue from certain subjective evidence as opposed to all subjective evidence.

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And yet you state that the Bible is true. Now you're implying that only your subjective evidence is valid or reasonable. How can we tell which subjective evidence is valid and which isn't?

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If they believe the subjective evidence im telling them certainly it can work for them just like it did for me if they do what the book says? If God is real why wouldn't it? If he's not then it's a crap shoot.

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That's why I mentioned the healing issue. Even amongst believers there are those who pray for healing and don't receive it. If an answer to prayer is subjective evidence for God's existence for an individual, then unanswered prayers are subjective evidence against God's existence for an individual. Believers don't usually take unanswered prayers as evidence against their god's existence.Let's look at the prayer evidence you presented in Message 3 concerning your shoulder. 3 John 1:2 isn't a prayer to God. The author is simply wishing his reader well. IOW, he's saying; "I hope this letter may find you well."From a Biblical standpoint it isn't a prayer and does not profess to confer healing if used as such. From an objective plain reading, the letter has nothing to do with healing.Another believer can speak the same words and receive no relief. So was your shoulder healed by your God, a different god, your own mind (meditation), or the warmth of your hand? Other than belief, can you tell which one it is? Have you tried praying to another god for healing?Subjective evidence isn't really a viable choice to determine the existence of a being. Great for individual choices, but doesn't go much further than that.Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

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The same can be said for any belief including atheism. However, I contend that it is possible for subjective evidence to be the basis of our deep personal beliefs.

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That's pretty much the meaning of subjective. How is a belief evidence of gods?We all believe many different things as we go through our lives. We add them and drop them as our needs dictate.We also learn in life that belief that something exists doesn't mean that it does.If subjective evidence can be evidence for the existence of gods, it can also be evidence against the existence of gods.

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dawn, it's simple, because the truth shall set you free. THEE truth.

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dawn, it would be easier for me to respond to you if I knew what you believed. I dont, but it seems you are a polytheist? Or universalist? Or a born again Christian playing devils advocate?

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I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't call me Dawn. If you need something short, use PD or Purple.As far as the topic, you making a claim that is beyond the scope of this thread to address. Yes, I know it is easier to find the right excuse for why I "don't get it" if you knew what I believe. Quite frankly you still on milk. My beliefs are irrelvant to your position.

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Well, dawn, once you do what the subjective evidenced Bible says to do, you'll know. That's how. It's really quite simple. DO what it SAYS and see the results

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But when it came to the healing prayer, you didn't do what the Bible said. As I said, the letter had nothing to do with healing and neither did the sentence you supposedly spoke. In reality, you are saying that what you say is true, not the Bible.

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You think it's logical to say answered prayer is subjective evidence therefore unanswered prayed is subjective evidence against God?

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You said answered prayer is subjective evidence of God's existence. So I can say that unanswered prayers would be evidence against a gods existence.As noted by others, the case for your God works just as well for other gods, but you would say that it doesn't. You still haven't explained why the subjective evidebce only applies to your god, other than your say so.

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Prayer is subjective evidence for God no matter if it's answered or not.

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You need to provide support for that statment. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. As others have noted, that leave the door open to supporting the existence of anything that doesn't answer. That even supports false gods.

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Unanswered prayer is as good for evidence as answered prayer. Your thinking is that God is a genie that hands out wishes and if they all don't come true that's evidence against God. That's silly.

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You mistake is assuming you know what I think. I don't consider God a genie or someone who is there to help me get a house. That's your schtick.Please address the issue. The prayer you said was not a prayer and had nothing to do with healing. How is that subjective evidence of anything?Edited by purpledawn, : Wrong ID

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There is research to suggest there are benefits in relation to prayer as the links below speak to.

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The studies you shared also showed that Buddhist meditation works just as well.Buddhist don't worship a god. How can prayer, answered or not, be subjective evidence of a god?

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I believe there is much more than subjective evidence for a God.

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A friendly reminder that this topic is about subjective evidence for gods only. It is not about objective evidence for gods.Hopefully you and those who continue to respond to your objective arguments will remember that and get back on topic.

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I told YOU before that I was healed from using prayers from the bible. Using words from the Bible to speak to my circumstances.

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Except that you didn't use a prayer from the Bible in the healing issue I addressed in Message 31 and Message 82. The words you used didn't speak to your circumstances. They had nothing to do with healing. The words didn't address your circumstance anymore than reading from the newspaper.How is using words that have nothing to do with healing constitute evidence of gods. If you could muster the same amount of belief and read words from the newspaper, would the healing have also taken place? You don't know.You need to provide more reasoning for the connection.

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So what? Every prayer doesn't need to come directly quoted word for word from the Bible. It's a book of truth, principles, lessons, analogies, alegories, literalism etc.

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I agree, except for the literalism. Literalism isn't contained in the Bible. Literalism is a method of interpretation or translation. Many books contain truths, principles, lessons, analogies, and alegories, etc; even the newspaper.You haven't made a reasonable argument to explain how reading any line from the Bible had any part in the healing.Remember what subjective means: Characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind.All you've shown is that your belief probably played a part in the healing. As I said, if you could have the same strength of belief and read a few seemingly pertinent lines from the newspaper, the same healing may have happened. You don't know.

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Just because you don't agree it's subjective evidence for God, doesn't make it not subjective evidence for God.

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Actually it does. Remember, subjective evidence is personal. What I consider to be subjective evidence is going to be different than yours. Your job in the debate is to give reasoned argumentation why I should accept your subjective evidence for your god.

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I've already proved that at the very least, the Bible is subjective evidence.

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You can't really prove subjective, you can only try to convince and you haven't done much to convince. You've claimed, but not much reasoned argumentation.At most you've shown your mind played a role in relieving your shoulder pain. Message 3Obviously the words were irrelevant.From a Christian standpoint, the Bible is no more subjective evidence for the Christian God, than Science Fiction novels are subjective evidence of intelligent life on other planets and yes there are people who believe there is some truth in Science Fiction. Survey shows many people believe science fiction is realFictional writings can contain truths, just like the Bible. Parables are fiction. This parable is a very good example of how belief or bias can obscure reality. IOW, we see what we want to see.

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If Buddhist don't believe in a god, how do you get by in using them as evidence for the existence of god?

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Good grief! Talk about a mountain out of a mole hill.We're looking at subjective evidence of gods, not defense of religions. If one believes that love and peace could only come from gods, then the presence of people practicing these ideas would lead one to assume the presence of a god whether those preaching, teaching, or practicing love and peace believe in a god or not.

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I have a message of peace and love also. Do you truly believe that only believers in your god or any other god are the only people that believe in peace and love?

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As jar likes to say: "If God exists, She exists regardless of the belief or non-belief of man."Please keep to the topic.

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Far from it. It's no mistake. I could care less about the actually Bible itself. Throw it, burry it, step on it, whatever, it has no power on it's own. It's the words inside of it once we get them into our minds, hearts and believe them, then see it masnifest in our lives. I don't worship the Bible, I worship the author, who ultimitly is God.

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... and believe them. As you keep showing, it is the belief that is the power, not the object of belief, which I believe is GDR's point concerning subjective conclusions.As I showed in the parable in Message 191, subjective conclusions aren't always right.That's what you need to explain concerning your subjective conclusions. What makes your subjective conclusions right versus anyone elses subjective conclusion?