Subjective Evidence of Gods

The Bible. It's the "truth" to me but subjective to you. It's the truth to me because i've experienced the fruit of believing it and acting on what it says.You havn't experienced any of that so it's subjective to you. Well, not really. Just because someone believes they saw an alien the other night doesn't make it true. The belief in UFO'S doesn't necessarily make it true, but it doesn't make it not true either.I think one can be swayed into believing in ET's and they can be very convincing but then what? What do you have to do to experience it? Get lucky? Who knows.That's the difference. The Bible gives instructions and outcomes.

Hi Dr A. Well, I disagree. The koran doesn't acknowledge Jesus for who He really is, and doesn't have him being crucified either. It's more of a "not so nice rule" book IMO than the Bible.Of course you can bring up God's way of doing things in the OT if you like but my point is there is vast amounts of differences in these two faiths. Richard Dawkins likes to put both Christian and Muslims in the same boat. As an atheist I can see why, as a Christian it's absurd.This probably isn't answering your comment. How can I doubt someones elses conversion and say mine was real and not theirs?Well, Jesus is what seperates this whole divide. Jesus is evidence of God. Everyone wants evidence, empirical evidence - Jesus is that. He walked around this earth 2000 years ago and did everything (and more) the Bible said he did.So, for you I suppose you have to believe the Bible is true and im not sure where you come out on that. Do you think it's at all credible? Or that any of the diciple existed?( i.e Peter, Luke etc.)To me personally, I believe the Bible is the best piece of evidence Christians have. It's real, you can hold it, read it, study it, trace it's origins...It seperates truth from non truth, IMO. Likewise.Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

My bad. When I mention the Bible as subjective evidence im using it as evidence to me. The koran is subjective evidence of course. Im not trying to make a case for all gods tho. Subjective evidence can be sorted out just like ideas about Abiogenesis. Lots of ideas are thrown around but they're not trying to make cases for the origin of life in a parallel universe even tho one might exist. They're trying to further our knowledge of this universe and then mabye apply it to another, later on.They're more familiar with the one we live in. So you can't blame me for presenting my subjective evidence. It's all I have and doesn't mean it's wrong if I fail to present every case for every religion ever known to mankind. Yeah, no kidding. Im not saying they don't have any subjective evidence am I? Like I said all religions have subjective evidence. Do I need to believe all of it to argue my point? If I believe all these gods exist then what am I doing living the way I am?I don't believe in relativism so im focusing on subjective evidence for God which can be applied to all gods if you wish. Im sure there is 9000 books on UFO's. It doesn't mean it's true just because there are books. Some subjective evidence is better than others. The Bible says you go to Heaven or Hell. Other religions say certain animals are their relatives reicarnate so don't kill them. I think it makes more sense to argue from certain subjective evidence as opposed to all subjective evidence.Im not sure Straggler is offended if I fail to mention every single book written on religions and focus on just a few as subjective evidence. If they believe the subjective evidence im telling them certainly it can work for them just like it did for me if they do what the book says? If God is real why wouldn't it? If he's not then it's a crap shoot. Of course, but we're talking about subjective evidence of god(s) not feelings. Inpsiration can come from reading a readers digest it doesn't mean it is subjective evidence of gods just because you're inspired. Yeah, but it's not subjective anymore to that individual after it is verified as truth to that person. So now, you have two? three? verified truths from subjective evidence and I think it's reasonalbe to test those against eashother to find the real truth or it's all realative and why believe any of it? I know it's not about the Bible being true, im just presenting it as "subjective" evidence.I accept all religions books as subjective evidence. I feel it all points to one absolute truth. I.E. other religions borrowing from the Bible etc. To me all these religions makes a case for a God but doesn't all lead to the same one.I believe in truth, dawn, and don't take offense if I feel people should atleast know why I believe what I do and where I get my evidence from and why. I glady listen to other peoples beliefs and don't blast them with mine. If they believe something different fine, but i'll present my belief also and if it goes further maybe we'll end up having a nice conversation on why we believe what we do based on our "subjective" evidence. Well, like you said, it's not all about my God. Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

Sweet! I'd love to hear his story! No, it doesn't at all. We all have different experiences. I love to hear other peoples encounters with God.Are you talking about which god actually?I assume you're saying what makes my experience any better or more truthful than His? I can't judge that or wouldn't. I can only say what has worked for me and why I think it is the truth and if He were interested in knowing what my truth was i'd share it with him and hope he would share his with me, then, talk about it and why we think it's truth.It doesn't have to be a fight, it can be fun and knowledgeable and we could both learn from eachother and take it from there.

Wow, so you think it's dishonest for someone to share His opinion? It's tiring to see so many non-theists rip theists opinions as if the answers/opinions one tries to provide according to their beliefs/views are intellectually dishonest.Once you can prove the non-existance of god(s) then you can throw the "intellectually dishonest" crap around. Until then it's simply peoples beliefs/views and just because YOU don't see it that was doesn't mean it's dishonest. How absurd, to think of yoursaelf so highly as to say others people opinions are dishonest.You're to caught up in the fight to see that YOUR comments are the ones that are "intellectually dishonest".Did you miss the part where GDR writes ???? Then, he goes on to give His answer to the question which he believes to be true.From Wiki:Intellectual dishonesty is dishonesty in performing intellectual activities like thought or communication. Examples are:-the advocacy of a position which the advocate knows or believes to be false or misleading
-the advocacy of a position which the advocate does not know to be true, and has not performed rigorous due diligence to ensure the truthfulness of the position
-the conscious omission of aspects of the truth known or believed to be relevant in the particular context.Maybe you mean he is BIASED is some way, but dishonest? Please. Your atheist grandstanding is sickining. Your hero must be Richard Dawkins? You like him? You seem about as prideful and full of yourself as him.Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

Your delusional. Would you like me to bow to you also?Apologise for? How do you get away with the crap you talk here? Calling people "intellectually dishonest" for answering questions according to how they see it and believe it to be somehow is dishonest in your eyes making YOUR opinion the ONLY right one?Are you following along PaulK? Who do you think owes an apology to who while were at it? Really I wouldn't ever ask for an apology on a debate site since everyone could be apologising all day long.I SURE wouldn't be asking for an apology from someone who called me out on calling someone else "intellectually dishonest" because of an opinion they shared.------------------------------------------------------------------------Beyond BeliefBy JIM HOLT / NEW YORK TIMES(from the article):" It's all in good fun when Dawkins mocks a buffoon like Pat Robertson and fundamentalist pastors like the one who created "Hell Houses" to frighten sin-prone children at Halloween. But it is less edifying when he questions the sincerity of serious thinkers who disagree with him, like the late Stephen Jay Gould, or insinuates that recipients of the million-dollar-plus Templeton Prize, awarded for work reconciling science and spirituality, are intellectually dishonest (and presumably venal to boot)"Page not found | Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and ScienceYou should stop reading so much Dawkins material. Use your own brain, not someone elses. I'll assume you are under the influence of Richard Dawkins right now and cannot formulate an original thought on your own therefore are unconsciously making statements that do not reflect the true feelings of PaulK.Apology accepted, and I forgive you

dawn, it's simple, because the truth shall set you free. THEE truth.dawn, it would be easier for me to respond to you if I knew what you believed. I dont, but it seems you are a polytheist? Or universalist? Or a born again Christian playing devils advocate? Well, dawn, once you do what the subjective evidenced Bible says to do, you'll know. That's how. It's really quite simple. DO what it SAYS and see the results Seriously dawn? You think it's logical to say answered prayer is subjective evidence therefore unanswered prayed is subjective evidence against God? or you think that's what IM saying?Prayer is subjective evidence for God no matter if it's answered or not.If I pray "God, I want this house it's perfect" and it sells to someone else that is unanswered prayer? OR, was God saving me from buying a money pit?Unanswered prayer is as good for evidence as answered prayer. Your thinking is that God is a genie that hands out wishes and if they all don't come true that's evidence against God. That's silly.

Pretty good, it seems. 100%, it appears.Life could be on other planets. It would seem if we never find any it's possible "subjective" evidence for god(s) since we're the only ones, fo far.What other explanation is there if we're the only life in the universe?It can't be answered, but we can go with what we can observe, which is, so far it's only us. I say it's good "evidence" for the existance og god(s).Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

Well, that was unexpected. It seems Straggler has worn you down. Why are you letting him? Just because someone repeats himself 900 times doesn't make him right. He's in his own world and half the time doesn't even have a point. He just keeps repeating repeating repeating repeating himself and eventually you end up saying "well, maybe there isn't subjective evidence, maybe it's all in my head".Curiously, (in honor of RAZD ) you said " There are only subjective thoughts or ideas."How do you figure? Are you implying that the Bible is simply a thought? Or idea and not valid undeniable proof much less subjective, at the very least? It is definitly subjective, if anything.And prayer is not subjective evidence? How so?Thousands and thousands of peoples testimonies telling of there experiences with God(s) is not subjective but ideas or thoughts?I could go on but for what? We've already been over this and you just went ALL the way back too, well, I dunno. Where are you?Are you demoting all subjective evidence to merely thoughts and ideas now?

Huh? The results, that's what. I told YOU before that I was healed from using prayers from the bible. Using words from the Bible to speak to my circumstances.THEREFORE the bible is ...evidence. Subjective to you and valid proof to me.What's the problem?

So what? Every prayer doesn't need to come directly quoted word for word from the Bible. It's a book of truth, principles, lessons, analogies, alegories, literalism etc.Just because you don't agree it's subjective evidence for God, doesn't make it not subjective evidence for God.I've already proved that at the very least, the Bible is subjective evidence.How is it not?Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

We do? I have, im not sure other people here have yet to recognize it as subjective evidence. The Bible is the living word of God. It has power, and is proven to be a valid historical document. It is the mind of God on paper. The Bible is God speaking to us.\[/qs\]And I guess the light buld would have never been invented if thomas edison never existed...I does not matter about the woulda, coulda, didnt's. I WAS HEALED, case closed. It works. When you plant a apple tree a peanut tree isn't going to come up. Similarily, When you trust the Bible you can KNOW it was God who healed you.Other times I wasn't, which I explained in a previous message about God knowing what's best for us. I thought we were talking about subjective evidence?

Not at all. We can compare them and seek out the truth. All of it's subjective but only one truth. All roads don't lead to God, only one, but it's good enough evidence for this thread isn't it?Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

Far from it. It's no mistake. I could care less about the actually Bible itself. Throw it, burry it, step on it, whatever, it has no power on it's own. It's the words inside of it once we get them into our minds, hearts and believe them, then see it masnifest in our lives. I don't worship the Bible, I worship the author, who ultimitly is God. None of us can know? US? So, when your mom used to come into your room at night when you were a little tyke you objectively knew it was her, or no?We CAN know it objectively, but to relay that to someone else is difficult if they are not willing to accept God even exists. Whaaaaaaaat? You did!?!? Elementary, my dear Watson!!Holy Crap! So, subjective evidence doesn't exist anymore. How are we to alert the rest of the civilized world? Don't you mean there are subjective facts from which we draw objectice conclusions?

GDR to Straggler Ok GDR, I have one question for you. As a Christian, do you think Straggler (who you are refering to in the comment above) in His current #6 dawkins scale beliefs and NOT being a Chriatian nor having repented from his sins nor accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savoir will be where you are in the life after this one to discuss what it is you are talking about?Trust me, I pray that Straggler IS in Heaven after this life and finally makes the decision to recieve Christ and everyone else on this forum, so don't get me wrong this is not an ambush on yours or his beliefs, im just wondering your take on it is and curious about your comment is all. Peace.