Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9173 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,565 Year: 4,822/9,624 Month: 170/427 Week: 83/85 Day: 0/20 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Subjective Evidence of Gods
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 1 of 468 (624088)
07-15-2011 8:18 PM


Over in the Peanut Gallery the never-ending inductive atheism debate continues......
But Chuck77 has specifically cited subjective evidence as something that should be taken into account. Nor is he alone in advocating this form of "evidence" in this context. So I would like to start a thread specifically on the nature and validity of subjective evidence as applied to belief in gods.
I would like to ask the following:
1) What subjective evidence in favour of the existence of gods is there? Can someone provide some actual examples of this form of evidence?
2) Is subjective evidence limited to entities that can be empirically detected or not?
3) On what basis (aside from belief) is the cause of these subjective experiences attributed to supernatural entities rather than to fluctuations in the matrix, undetectable telepathic aliens manipulating our minds or any other conceivable cause of such things?
4) Is belief itself a form of evidence on which we can justify belief?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Chuck77, posted 07-17-2011 2:23 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 10 by Dogmafood, posted 07-17-2011 6:20 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 12 by GDR, posted 07-17-2011 6:41 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 266 by nlerd, posted 08-26-2011 11:06 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 276 by Just being real, posted 08-29-2011 1:23 AM Straggler has not replied

Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 468 (624283)
07-17-2011 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-15-2011 8:18 PM


Straggler writes:
1) What subjective evidence in favour of the existence of gods is there? Can someone provide some actual examples of this form of evidence?
The Bible. It's the "truth" to me but subjective to you. It's the truth to me because i've experienced the fruit of believing it and acting on what it says.
You havn't experienced any of that so it's subjective to you.
4) Is belief itself a form of evidence on which we can justify belief?
Well, not really. Just because someone believes they saw an alien the other night doesn't make it true. The belief in UFO'S doesn't necessarily make it true, but it doesn't make it not true either.
I think one can be swayed into believing in ET's and they can be very convincing but then what? What do you have to do to experience it? Get lucky? Who knows.
That's the difference. The Bible gives instructions and outcomes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 07-15-2011 8:18 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-17-2011 4:12 AM Chuck77 has replied
 Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 07-17-2011 9:15 AM Chuck77 has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 3 of 468 (624291)
07-17-2011 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Chuck77
07-17-2011 2:23 AM


The Bible. It's the "truth" to me but subjective to you. It's the truth to me because i've experienced the fruit of believing it and acting on what it says.
The trouble is that other people have had similar experiences. For example:
I discovered more and more people, who for no apparent reason, loved me. I rejoiced, for I remembered reading that if Allah loves you, He causes others to love you. I am not worthy of all the love. That means it must be another gift from Allah. Allah is the Greatest! [...] There is no way to fully explain how my life changed. Alhamdulillah! I am so very glad that I am a Muslim. Islam is my life. Islam is the beat of my heart. Islam is the blood that courses through my veins. Islam is my strength. Islam is my life so wonderful and beautiful. Without Islam, I am nothing and should Allah ever turn His magnificent face from me I could not survive.
She has also "experienced the fruit of believing it and acting on what it says". It's just that her "it" is a different "it" from your "it". Now this sort of experience can't be taken as real evidence, because if it could then it would be necessary to believe in two mutually exclusive religions.
That's the difference. The Bible gives instructions and outcomes.
Like the Koran.
You seem like a nice chap, and perhaps Christianity has made you a better and happier person (or maybe you'd have been that way anyway). But this is no evidence of its truth, because another religion or philosophy might have had the same effect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Chuck77, posted 07-17-2011 2:23 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Chuck77, posted 07-17-2011 5:47 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 468 (624298)
07-17-2011 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dr Adequate
07-17-2011 4:12 AM


Hi Dr A.
Like the Koran.
Well, I disagree. The koran doesn't acknowledge Jesus for who He really is, and doesn't have him being crucified either. It's more of a "not so nice rule" book IMO than the Bible.
Of course you can bring up God's way of doing things in the OT if you like but my point is there is vast amounts of differences in these two faiths. Richard Dawkins likes to put both Christian and Muslims in the same boat. As an atheist I can see why, as a Christian it's absurd.
This probably isn't answering your comment. How can I doubt someones elses conversion and say mine was real and not theirs?
Well, Jesus is what seperates this whole divide. Jesus is evidence of God. Everyone wants evidence, empirical evidence - Jesus is that. He walked around this earth 2000 years ago and did everything (and more) the Bible said he did.
So, for you I suppose you have to believe the Bible is true and im not sure where you come out on that. Do you think it's at all credible? Or that any of the diciple existed?( i.e Peter, Luke etc.)
To me personally, I believe the Bible is the best piece of evidence Christians have. It's real, you can hold it, read it, study it, trace it's origins...It seperates truth from non truth, IMO.
You seem like a nice chap,
Likewise.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-17-2011 4:12 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by frako, posted 07-17-2011 6:43 AM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 6 by cavediver, posted 07-17-2011 6:45 AM Chuck77 has replied
 Message 8 by Modulous, posted 07-17-2011 11:52 AM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-17-2011 12:00 PM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 11 by GDR, posted 07-17-2011 6:31 PM Chuck77 has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 382 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 5 of 468 (624302)
07-17-2011 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chuck77
07-17-2011 5:47 AM


Well, Jesus is what seperates this whole divide. Jesus is evidence of God. Everyone wants evidence, empirical evidence - Jesus is that. He walked around this earth 2000 years ago and did everything (and more) the Bible said he did.
Well Hercules is the proof that Zeus exists he did everything aincent greek texst says he did and more. Killed monsters helped the people, halepd the gods defend Olympus....
Buddha is the proof that Buddhism is true he lived 2500 years ago and did everything the texts says he did and more.
Muhammad Is the proof that Allah is real he did everything the quo ran says he did and more. Flew away on a flying hose got his book form Gabriel .....
.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Chuck77, posted 07-17-2011 5:47 AM Chuck77 has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3719 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 6 of 468 (624304)
07-17-2011 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chuck77
07-17-2011 5:47 AM


Well, Jesus is what seperates this whole divide. Jesus is evidence of God. Everyone wants evidence, empirical evidence - Jesus is that. He walked around this earth 2000 years ago and did everything (and more) the Bible said he did.
But my brother has even better than that. He has a conversion story to rival any Christian, has seen miracles performed in front of his eyes, knows he has the *Truth*, and has lived in community with his fellow believers. But not only that, he actually met God incarnate - worshipped and served Him in His own temples and ashrams. He knelt at His feet, received Darshan from him in person, and from afar from around the world. Does your Truth trump my brother's Truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Chuck77, posted 07-17-2011 5:47 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Chuck77, posted 07-18-2011 2:54 AM cavediver has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3533 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 7 of 468 (624320)
07-17-2011 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Chuck77
07-17-2011 2:23 AM


Subjective Evidence of Gods
Subjective
Based on (or related to) attitudes, beliefs, or opinions, instead of on verifiable evidence or phenomenon. Contrasts with objective.
Remember, this thread is about subjective evidence of gods, not just your God. If a book is subjective evidence for your God, then a book is subjective evidence for other gods. Believers will always consider their books to be true.
How can you condemn the existence of another god when the believers are using the same type of subjective evidence you claim as support your God? Just because you don't choose to believe their claims, doesn't mean they don't have subjective evidence.
quote:
The Bible. It's the "truth" to me but subjective to you. It's the truth to me because i've experienced the fruit of believing it and acting on what it says.
You havn't experienced any of that so it's subjective to you.
That is the point. You have tried to apply some of the teachings of the Bible and they have worked for you. That is subjective because only you know what you did exactly and what came about. The same process won't necessarily work the same way for another person.
There are many common sense teachings in the Bible that are not unique to the Bible. The proverbs are words of wisdom from the experiences of the time. Whether they are all still applicable today, I don't know. I haven't read or tried all of them.
In times of need, inspiration can be pulled from any book, whether good or bad. There are many thoughts from the Bible that guide people in daily dealings, but they don't necessarily guide others the same way. That's subjective. We can all objectively see the same words on the paper (when looking at the same version of course), but our opinions or reactions won't all be the same.
Objective
Neutral (bias free), relating to, or based on verifiable evidence or phenomenon instead of on attitude, belief, or opinion.
Various people pray to gods for healing or safety, but not all are healed or safe. Various people don't pray for healing or safety, and not all are healed or safe.
Unfortunately subjective evidence only works for the individual.
This thread isn't about whether the Bible is true or not. You feel there is subjective evidence for your God, but you don't accept the subjective evidence for the gods of others. So if you can't accept theirs, why should they accept yours?
Just because you believe the truth of your religious writings, doesn't mean another person can or should believe your truth over what they believe to be true. Then we get back to trying to prove objectively that a specific deity is real and the other is not.
You haven't really shown us why subjective evidence is good for your God, but not for the gods of others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Chuck77, posted 07-17-2011 2:23 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Chuck77, posted 07-18-2011 2:33 AM purpledawn has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 8 of 468 (624338)
07-17-2011 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chuck77
07-17-2011 5:47 AM


self serving claims of authority
Well, I disagree. The koran doesn't acknowledge Jesus for who He really is, and doesn't have him being crucified either.
How do you know this?
Well, Jesus is what seperates this whole divide. Jesus is evidence of God.
Then present Jesus, otherwise we don't have evidence of God.
He walked around this earth 2000 years ago and did everything (and more) the Bible said he did.
How do you know this?
So, for you I suppose you have to believe the Bible is true and im not sure where you come out on that. Do you think it's at all credible? Or that any of the diciple existed?( i.e Peter, Luke etc.)
I believe that Egyptian Pharaohs existed, but I dispute their claims to being related to Ra or Ptah or any other obviously self-serving claims to authority. I am happy to accept the existence of Hammurabi but I dispute he was sent by Marduk, as was claimed. I assume, from your dismissal of the Qur'an, that you know to do this too. But you make an exception in the case of the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Chuck77, posted 07-17-2011 5:47 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 9 of 468 (624339)
07-17-2011 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chuck77
07-17-2011 5:47 AM


Well, I disagree. The koran doesn't acknowledge Jesus for who He really is, and doesn't have him being crucified either. It's more of a "not so nice rule" book IMO than the Bible.
Yes, but like the Bible it "gives instructions and outcomes". I didn't say that they were exactly the same, otherwise they'd both be the Bible.
So sure, there are differences. You say that the difference is that the Koran "doesn't acknowledge Jesus for who He really is"; a Muslim would say that the difference is that the Bible encourages the ultimate blasphemy known as shirk. Tomayto, tomahto.
Well, Jesus is what seperates this whole divide. Jesus is evidence of God. Everyone wants evidence, empirical evidence - Jesus is that. He walked around this earth 2000 years ago and did everything (and more) the Bible said he did.
But then you've strayed from the topic. If you have empirical evidence, that wouldn't be subjective, would it? The question in this thread is whether subjective feelings would constitute evidence; if you had objective proof of the historicity of the Gospels, this would not fall under that heading.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Chuck77, posted 07-17-2011 5:47 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 10 of 468 (624407)
07-17-2011 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-15-2011 8:18 PM


Can someone provide some actual examples of this form of evidence?
Just google 'How I Found God'. That should give you 136,000,000 examples or so.
2) Is subjective evidence limited to entities that can be empirically detected or not?
From my own understanding and looking at PD’s definitions, subjective and empirical are antonyms. Thus ‘subjective evidence’ is an oxymoron. However, if you are going to accept the joining of ‘subjective’ and ‘evidence’, then I don’t see why it wouldn’t apply to anything.
3) On what basis (aside from belief) is the cause of these subjective experiences attributed to supernatural entities rather than to fluctuations in the matrix, undetectable telepathic aliens manipulating our minds or any other conceivable cause of such things?
A misguided attempt to maintain credibility because, you know, god is more credible than, say, an alien.
4) Is belief itself a form of evidence on which we can justify belief?
This is what prompted me to respond. What about our belief that we make choices? What about the little engine that thought it could? Any martial artist will tell you that the first step to breaking the board or the brick is to believe that you can do it. A person’s self confidence is directly related to that person’s ability.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 07-15-2011 8:18 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Coragyps, posted 07-17-2011 8:09 PM Dogmafood has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 11 of 468 (624409)
07-17-2011 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chuck77
07-17-2011 5:47 AM


Comparing the Qu'ran and the Bible Subjectively
Chuck77 writes:
Well, I disagree. The koran doesn't acknowledge Jesus for who He really is, and doesn't have him being crucified either. It's more of a "not so nice rule" book IMO than the Bible.
Yes and no. The Qr'ran or Koran if you like does recognize Jesus as Messiah and as a prophet. It doesn't recognize Jesus as part of the Trinity but it certainly goes far enough that we have a great deal of common ground if we want to look at what we have in common instead of focusing on the differences.
The Qu'ran recognizes Jesus as prophet and messiah in Surah 3 — 45 to 47
quote:
And remember when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah)
He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.
She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what he will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! And it is.
Also both the Bible and the Koran are narratives that tell the story of our evolving understanding of God. The question then is, where the narratives differ which is more accurate. As a Christian I believe that the Bible does a more accurate job of revealing God to His creation than the Qu'ran does, and particularly as revealed to us through Jesus Christ.
I don't see the Bible as a book of rules and regulations. Nor do I see it as a something that is to be believed so that all of our questions can be answered. I see it as a story of the mankind and of how God through human imagination and wisdom revealed and continues to reveal His nature and desires for His creation. He has done this through inspired mythologies of creation, through Moses and the prophets and climaxing in Jesus and the resurrection. I believe that the authors of the Biblical stories were inspired to tell their own stories in their own words. Thus when they say that God told them to go into some town and commit genocide we can use our subjective wisdom, (as well as looking at the story through the lens of the gospels), and see that although they believed that is what God wanted they had in actuality got it wrong.
In others word we have to use our subjective wisdom, whether divinely inspired or not, to understand the message that we should act on in our holy books. I also think that the message, as delivered by Jesus in the Gospels, is that the Muslims are not our enemies. They are part of God’s good creation, they are loved by God and they are our neighbour. This is not to say that when anyone uses their faith to commit atrocities that we shouldn’t respond, but one thing we should not do is tar everyone of that faith with the same brush.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Chuck77, posted 07-17-2011 5:47 AM Chuck77 has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 12 of 468 (624414)
07-17-2011 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-15-2011 8:18 PM


Straggler writes:
1) What subjective evidence in favour of the existence of gods is there? Can someone provide some actual examples of this form of evidence?
We exist as sentient beings in a world that appears to be made ready for us.
Straggler writes:
2) Is subjective evidence limited to entities that can be empirically detected or not?
No. An idea is real but can't, at least as I understand it, be empirically detected.
Straggler writes:
3) On what basis (aside from belief) is the cause of these subjective experiences attributed to supernatural entities rather than to fluctuations in the matrix, undetectable telepathic aliens manipulating our minds or any other conceivable cause of such things?
Using human wisdom we can pick what seems most likely which is subjective, but just the same there is considerable subjective evidence, in my view, to guide us.
Straggler writes:
4) Is belief itself a form of evidence on which we can justify belief?
Yes. We have inquiring minds and I suggest that isn't by accident.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 07-15-2011 8:18 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Panda, posted 07-17-2011 7:22 PM GDR has replied
 Message 14 by AZPaul3, posted 07-17-2011 7:44 PM GDR has replied
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-17-2011 8:22 PM GDR has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3789 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 13 of 468 (624421)
07-17-2011 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by GDR
07-17-2011 6:41 PM


GDR writes:
We exist as sentient beings in a world that appears to be made ready for us.
This is only true if you ignore the fact that most of the planet's surface is unsuitable for us to live on and the comparatively small amount of land that we can live on is filled with innumerable deadly threats.
But other than that - sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by GDR, posted 07-17-2011 6:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 07-17-2011 10:23 PM Panda has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 14 of 468 (624424)
07-17-2011 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by GDR
07-17-2011 6:41 PM


We exist as sentient beings in a world that appears to be made ready for us.
But, we evolved into this world by adapting successfully to the environment that already existed prior to us being here and acquired traits that allow us to continue surviving and procreating as a species. This is objectively evidenced, so your rendition as subjective evidence for gods must fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by GDR, posted 07-17-2011 6:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 07-17-2011 10:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 811 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 15 of 468 (624426)
07-17-2011 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dogmafood
07-17-2011 6:20 PM


because, you know, god is more credible than, say, an alien.
Really? Biology leading to intelligence on other worlds is less credible than a bodyless mind floating somewhere in space? Or did you mean "a god" and not the Abrahamic sort of one?

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dogmafood, posted 07-17-2011 6:20 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Dogmafood, posted 07-17-2011 9:39 PM Coragyps has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024