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Author Topic:   Scientifically Investigating Human Belief
Straggler
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Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 1 of 36 (624652)
07-17-2011 4:30 PM


Another bluegenes Vs RAZD Great Debate and related Peanut Gallery spin-off topic.
Humans believe in the existence of supernatural beings. There is a vast array of evidence on which to conclude that this is an indisputable fact both now and in the past. All over the world and throughout the ages people have believed in the existence of the supernatural.
So we have an observable phenomenon (human belief in the existence of the supernatural) that requires scientific explanation.
The question posed in this thread is therefore: How do we scientifically investigate the cause of this observable phenomenon?

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 Message 36 by trisha, posted 09-01-2011 6:55 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Admin
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From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 36 (624653)
07-18-2011 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-17-2011 4:30 PM


Hi Straggler,
Aren't you really asking how one scientifically approaches the question of whether the observed phenomenon of human belief in the supernatural has any legitimate empirical support? And isn't there already a thread discussing this, even if it wasn't the original topic?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 3 of 36 (624654)
07-18-2011 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
07-18-2011 5:41 AM


Admin writes:
Aren't you really asking how one scientifically approaches the question of whether the observed phenomenon of human belief in the supernatural has any legitimate empirical support?
No.
No I am asking what the scientific support for the naturalistic alternatives are. I am asking how we scientifically investigate the reasons people believe in the things that they do. In Message 1292 Mod writes:
Mod writes:
The proclivity for humans to embellish, confabulate, imagine, speculate. The proclivity for confirmation bias in superstitious behaviour and beliefs. The hyper active agency detection of human minds, the need for 'false positives' in survival. The tendency to pay more mental attention to entities that are minimally counter-intuitive. The sheer number of conceptions of supernatural beings which have been shown false by science. The fact that no evidence supporting the existence of any supernatural entity has been forthcoming in an age where we figured out time dilation and quantum physics.
The very existence of 'wishful thinking' that you point out and the very 'wishful' nature of many supernatural concepts. The hierarchical mind set of primates. Our strong desire for narrative, even or especially ones that circumvent our common notions in interesting ways.
The connection between epilepsy and religious ideas, the common content of delusions and so on and so forth.
There are plenty of psychological effects that we know of that could explain how humans can inadvertently create and believe in the existence of unseen beings.
This is a fairly succinct summary of the sort of things I had in mind when proposing this topic.

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Admin
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Message 4 of 36 (624656)
07-19-2011 9:06 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Scientifically Investigating Human Belief thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Dr Jack
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(1)
Message 5 of 36 (624671)
07-19-2011 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-17-2011 4:30 PM


The question posed in this thread is therefore: How do we scientifically investigate the cause of this observable phenomenon?
Using the same techniques developed in psychology, and being developed in evolutionary psychology, to investigate all other human behaviours, of course.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 6 of 36 (624745)
07-19-2011 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Jack
07-19-2011 10:17 AM


Getting Started
Mr Jack writes:
Using the same techniques developed in psychology, and being developed in evolutionary psychology, to investigate all other human behaviours, of course.
Indeedy.
But we need details. Both the below have been posted (by Mod in the Peanut gallery) elsewhere. But they should get this thread going:
Link
The findings emerging from this cognitive evolutionary
approach challenge two central tenets of most established religions. First, the notion that their particular creed differs from
all other (supposedly misguided) faiths; second, that it is only because of extraordinary events or the actual presence of supernatural agents that religious ideas have taken shape. On the contrary, we now know that all versions of religion
are based on very similar tacit assumptions, and that all it takes to imagine supernatural agents are normal human minds processing information in the most natural way.
Knowing, even accepting these conclusions is unlikely to undermine religious commitment. Some form of religious thinking seems to be
the path of least resistance for our cognitive systems. By contrast, disbelief is generally the result of deliberate, effortful work against our natural cognitive dispositions hardly the easiest ideology to propagate
Or J Anderson Thomson gives a good overview for the hypothesis currently being explored by cognitive scientists, psychiatrists etc. where religion acts a super stimulator for our evolved brain (much like soft drinks and big macs are superstimulating versions of protein and sugar which we evolved to pursue). Supernatural agency is part of this this theory. Here is a somewhat informal presentation of the ideas in case you hadn't watched it.

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John Jones
Junior Member (Idle past 4589 days)
Posts: 21
Joined: 08-05-2011


Message 7 of 36 (628037)
08-06-2011 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-17-2011 4:30 PM


quote So we have an observable phenomenon (human belief in the existence of the supernatural) that requires scientific explanation. The question posed in this thread is therefore: How do we scientifically investigate the cause of this observable phenomenon? unquote
This is quite tangled, in at least two ways.
First, you cannot investigate a belief - by the nature of belief. A belief is the decision to act on one of two or more necessarily unproved or unprovable propositions. Not only that, but the decision to act on any one of the propositions is always i) beyond logical reproach even if it is pragmatically a matter of reproach ii) unrelated to the facts on which the unproved propositions are based.
The other tangle was the unannounced slide from investigating the putatively private or psychological nature of belief (even though the propositions that make up a belief are always public, never private), to the idea that investigating a belief was investigating the propositions or facts behind the propositions of a belief. So you can understand if I ask you what you think you want to investigate?
Edited by John Jones, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 8 of 36 (628125)
08-06-2011 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by John Jones
08-06-2011 10:36 AM


A belief is the decision to act on one of two or more necessarily unproved or unprovable propositions. Not only that, but the decision to act on any one of the propositions is always i) beyond logical reproach even if it is pragmatically a matter of reproach ii) unrelated to the facts on which the unproved propositions are based.
What about beliefs that have been proven wrong by mountains of evidence?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 9 of 36 (628188)
08-07-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by John Jones
08-06-2011 10:36 AM


JJ writes:
So you can understand if I ask you what you think you want to investigate?
This thread asks what science has to say about the question of why people believe in the existence of supernatural beings. Things like Hyperactive Agency Detection are an obvious starting point in such discussions.
JJ writes:
First, you cannot investigate a belief - by the nature of belief.
Of course you can invenstigate reasons and causes for belief. If I asked you why people used to believe that the Earth was flat you would have no problem with the question being posed.
Here I am asking why it is that humans believe in supernatural beings and seeking the scientific answer to this question.
Why do you have a problem with that?

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John Jones
Junior Member (Idle past 4589 days)
Posts: 21
Joined: 08-05-2011


Message 10 of 36 (628464)
08-09-2011 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taq
08-06-2011 10:28 PM


A belief can't be proven wrong, for a true fact is never offered as a matter of belief.

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John Jones
Junior Member (Idle past 4589 days)
Posts: 21
Joined: 08-05-2011


Message 11 of 36 (628465)
08-09-2011 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Straggler
08-07-2011 12:01 PM


quote:
This thread asks what science has to say about the question of why people believe in the existence of supernatural beings. Things like Hyperactive Agency Detection are an obvious starting point in such discussions. Of course you can invenstigate reasons and causes for belief. If I asked you why people used to believe that the Earth was flat you would have no problem with the question being posed. Here I am asking why it is that humans believe in supernatural beings and seeking the scientific answer to this question.
Why do you have a problem with that?
If I believe that it will rain tomorrow, then what would you want to investigate?
There can be no investigation. People believe only in those things that either can't be proven or have not been proved. It's perfectly logical to say I believe in A,and not B, if both A and B are unproved or unprovable.
I think what you want to say is that supernatural things are nonsense. But that has nothing to do with belief.
{Fixed quote box. Use "peek" to see how it was done. - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box. Add a blank line in quote box while I was at it.

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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 12 of 36 (628473)
08-09-2011 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by John Jones
08-09-2011 6:11 PM


John Jones writes:
A belief can't be proven wrong, for a true fact is never offered as a matter of belief.
That is not correct.
When I was a child I believed that Santa Claus left gifts for me at the foot of my bed.
This has been proven to be wrong.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

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AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
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Member Rating: 5.2


Message 13 of 36 (628482)
08-09-2011 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by John Jones
08-09-2011 6:19 PM


Good god man! John, you have been given these instructions many times now. Pay attention.
To make a quote section type this ...
[quote] ...... [/quote]
Example:
[quote] How many times do you need instruction in this?[/quote]
becomes:
quote:
How many times do you need instruction in this?
Note the square brackets "[ ]" around quote and /quote. On most QWERTY keyboards these appear just to the right of the "P" key, non-shifted. Use them.
To make a quote square use ...
[qs] ...... [/qs]
Example:
[qs] If you cannot learn this then I question your ability to participate on this forum at all.[/qs]
becomes:
If you cannot learn this then then I question your ability to participate on this forum at all.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 14 of 36 (628498)
08-10-2011 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by John Jones
08-09-2011 6:19 PM


JJ writes:
If I believe that it will rain tomorrow, then what would you want to investigate?
We could investigate two things:
1) Whether or not it does indeed rain tomorrow
2) What led you to hold this belief
JJ writes:
People believe only in those things that either can't be proven or have not been proved.
Well given that no evidence based conclusion can ever be proven that covers pretty much all conclusions outside of pure logical deduction.
So now we know that we can indeed evidentially investigate the supernatural beliefs held by humans and the causes of these beliefs do you have anything to say about the actual topic of this thread?
JJ writes:
I think what you want to say is that supernatural things are nonsense. But that has nothing to do with belief.
Let's start with an easy example. Did you ever believe in the existence of Santa?
If so - What led you to hold this belief? What led you to shed this belief?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 15 of 36 (629735)
08-19-2011 2:15 PM


How Rational Are You?
Would you live in a house that was once the dwelling of a serial killer? When playing the lottery do you select numbers that have personal significance to you rather than just go with randomly generated numbers? If betting on dice would you want to make your bet and then throw the dice yourself or would you be happy to bet on an unknown but already completed dice throw? In each case — Why?
How rational are any of us really? Some more than others evidently. But I put it to you that none of us are immune from deeply human forms of irrationality. Let’s find out. Here are a few questions. Really consider them. What would you really do if I offered you a thousand pounds (or dollars if you prefer) to do the following things? When answering really try and imagine the situation as real.
For a thousand dollars/pounds would you:
1) Try on an item of clothing, such as a cardigan, once owned by (but since washed) the infamous serial killer Fred West?
2) Lick a close-up photo of some maggots?
3) Drink a cup of water taken from a newly installed, never before used and known to be sterile toilet bowl/urinal?
4) Throw darts at a life-size picture of a baby?
5) Gouge out the eyes of a photograph of a loved one?
6) Burn a (not special or precious but just everyday paperback) book?
Which would you do and which wouldn’t you do? Even if you would do the act in question which did you balk at before deciding that you would do it anyway?
To slightly give the game away the theory here is that those more predisposed to religious beliefs will make more irrational connections and make more decisions based on intuitive feelings involving unseen links than those more predisposed to rational thought.
But I would bet that even the most rational amongst us would have to seriously consider some of the above before actually doing them. Seriously consider them for reasons that rationally don’t make any sense but which humanly do.
Edited by Straggler, : Fix link

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