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Author Topic:   Scientifically Investigating Human Belief
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 16 of 36 (629741)
08-19-2011 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
08-19-2011 2:15 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
To slightly give the game away the theory here is that those more predisposed to religious beliefs will make more irrational connections and make more decisions based on intuitive feelings involving unseen links than those more predisposed to rational thought.

Makes sense because I would have no issue doing any of those things.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 08-19-2011 2:15 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 17 of 36 (629743)
08-19-2011 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
08-19-2011 2:15 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
6) Burn a (not special or precious but just everyday paperback) book?

For what it is worth #6 is the only one I hesitated on, even though I have burned paperbacks that were falling apart in my trash barrel before. It still felt wrong, irrational I know. I guess burning books reminds me of intolerance and censorship, and somewhat revolts me, even though all I was doing was burning trash? Funny how our mind works.

Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.


"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
— Hunter S. Thompson

Ad astra per aspera

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 08-19-2011 2:15 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 08-19-2011 5:41 PM fearandloathing has acknowledged this reply

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2384
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 18 of 36 (629744)
08-19-2011 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by AZPaul3
08-09-2011 10:43 PM


Hi AZPaul3,

If you cannot learn this then I question your ability to participate on this forum at all.

Oh, go easy on him Paul. He is from another planet after all...

He isn't familiar with our Earthling ways.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by AZPaul3, posted 08-09-2011 10:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2011 5:35 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6214
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 19 of 36 (629745)
08-19-2011 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
08-19-2011 2:15 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
OK. I'll play.

Would you live in a house that was once the dwelling of a serial killer?

No problem. Depends on floor plan, construction , price , location, the usual.

When playing the lottery do you select numbers that have personal significance to you rather than just go with randomly generated numbers?

Whenever I play the lottery (once a decade or so) I always go Quick Pick (computer generated). I'm to lazy to fill in all the little slots on the form.

If betting on dice would you want to make your bet and then throw the dice yourself or would you be happy to bet on an unknown but already completed dice throw?

Don't know that it makes a difference. In fact, it doesn't, really. Sure, let's bet.

For a thousand dollars/pounds would you:

1) Try on an item of clothing, such as a cardigan, once owned by (but since washed) the infamous serial killer Fred West?

Sure. No qualms.

2) Lick a close-up photo of some maggots?

I've actually done something similar but wasn't paid for it. No problem.

3) Drink a cup of water taken from a newly installed, never before used and known to be sterile toilet bowl/urinal?

Squeemishly, but yes. You do realize that a thousand pounds in dollars (assuming $1 bills) is $453,514? I'll do just about anything you want, Straggler!

4) Throw darts at a life-size picture of a baby?

I'm an atheist, remember? I eat babies.

Throwing darts at a picture of one in exchang for $453,514 is a no brainer. Bring it on!

5) Gouge out the eyes of a photograph of a loved one?

You got the money, I got the time.

6) Burn a (not special or precious but just everyday paperback) book?

Been there, done that. Was not paid. I look forward to doing business with you.

So are these going to be personal or certified checks?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 08-19-2011 2:15 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 08-19-2011 5:58 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6214
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 20 of 36 (629746)
08-19-2011 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Granny Magda
08-19-2011 5:16 PM


If you cannot learn this then I question your ability to participate on this forum at all.

Oh, go easy on him Paul. He is from another planet after all...

No, I wasn't directing any comments to him. I was just ... uhh ... using a random phrase I thunked up to illustrate the use of the feature?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Granny Magda, posted 08-19-2011 5:16 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 21 of 36 (629747)
08-19-2011 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by fearandloathing
08-19-2011 4:22 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
Well based on my own answers I may not be nearly as rational as I would like to think. Here are my own answers to my own questions:

Me writes:

Would you live in a house that was once the dwelling of a serial killer?

No. I know it's irrational and I cannot quite explain it - But no. It's too sick in some way I can't really explain.

Me writes:

When playing the lottery do you select numbers that have personal significance to you rather than just go with randomly generated numbers?

I don't play the lottery (it is a pursuit for the probabilistically illiterate as far as I am concerned) but on the odd occasion that I have taken part I let the random number thing take it's course.

Me writes:

If betting on dice would you want to make your bet and then throw the dice yourself or would you be happy to bet on an unknown but already completed dice throw?

The first seems more natural but I don't have any preference ultimately. Rationality takes precedence.

Me writes:

For a thousand dollars/pounds would you:

Let's see...

Me writes:

1) Try on an item of clothing, such as a cardigan, once owned by (but since washed) the infamous serial killer Fred West?

Yes I would. But I sorta get why some people wouldn't....

Me writes:

2) Lick a close-up photo of some maggots?

For a 1000 pounds I would overcome my innate squeemishness but it wouldn't be as much of a rational no brainer as I would like to think. Actually imagining it makes me flinch.

Me writes:

3) Drink a cup of water taken from a newly installed, never before used and known to be sterile toilet bowl/urinal?

Genuinely no problem. Am sure I have done far worse.......

Me writes:

4) Throw darts at a life-size picture of a baby?

No issue with this at all. Even a pic of my own toddler wouldn't deter me in the slightest.

Me writes:

5) Gouge out the eyes of a photograph of a loved one?

Again - No issue at all.

Me writes:

6) Burn a (not special or precious but just everyday paperback) book?

I would def do it for a 1000 pounds but something inside would rankle for some reason. Weird.....?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by fearandloathing, posted 08-19-2011 4:22 PM fearandloathing has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 22 of 36 (629748)
08-19-2011 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by AZPaul3
08-19-2011 5:28 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
I hate to burst your bubble but £1000 is (at current exchange rates) about $1,600.

AZ writes:

So are these going to be personal or certified checks?

EvC standard issue hypothetical cheques (note spelling) are paid for hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions.

Strags writes:

3) Drink a cup of water taken from a newly installed, never before used and known to be sterile toilet bowl/urinal?

AZ writes:

Squeemishly, but yes.

You'd live in the house of a serial killer without a second thought but be squeemish about drinking water from a never-used urinal.....?

Isn't the human brain a strange thing?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2011 5:28 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2011 7:57 PM Straggler has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6214
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 23 of 36 (629761)
08-19-2011 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Straggler
08-19-2011 5:58 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
I hate to burst your bubble but £1000 is (at current exchange rates) about $1,600.

But you said a thousand pounds in dollars. At .002205 lbs per bill that's 453,514 bills. I don't mind taking One's.

You'd live in the house of a serial killer without a second thought but be squeemish about drinking water from a never-used urinal.....?

Isn't the human brain a strange thing?

Is it? (well, yes it is) But in this case there is some logic to it if not a whole lot.

The house is a house is a house. It doesn't affect me because the house is not the killer. What may have happened there is out of time, invisible to me and is of no affect. Nothing immediate, nothing personal.

The urinal drink, however, even clean, even knowing it is no different than a sink faucet, is going into my mouth. That is both immediate and personal. And disgusting.

But, for you, Straggler (and for $453,514) I think I could stomach it once.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 08-19-2011 5:58 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Straggler, posted 08-21-2011 5:42 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 24 of 36 (629977)
08-21-2011 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by AZPaul3
08-19-2011 7:57 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
AZ writes:

But you said a thousand pounds in dollars. At .002205 lbs per bill that's 453,514 bills. I don't mind taking One's.

I see. How annoyingly clever. But given that I am paying in EvC standard issue hypo cheques for hypo answers to hypo quetions you can pretty much name your price......

AZ writes:

The house is a house is a house. It doesn't affect me because the house is not the killer. What may have happened there is out of time, invisible to me and is of no affect.

But but but............Oh fuckit I can't rationalie my position it is irrational. That is kinda the point.

But did you know that in American law when selling a property it has to be stated if it is haunted or otherwise "stigmatized" in some way (e.g. once owned by a serial killer) because this has serious repercusions for market value? It seems not all are as rational as you about such things. In fact most very much are not.

Who lives in the place where Jeffery Dahmer lived? It's now a car park. The house of the killer I asked about (Fred West) was demolished and every last brick crushed into dust before being spread across unmarked landfill sites.

Why do you think that is? Why won't people adopt the attitude you have expressed and live in these places?

Are most of us innately irrational about the hidden symbolism (even contagion) of such things.......?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2011 7:57 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2011 7:28 PM Straggler has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6214
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 25 of 36 (629988)
08-21-2011 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Straggler
08-21-2011 5:42 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
Who lives in the place where Jeffery Dahmer lived? It's now a car park.

That I can understand. If they missed a corpse under the floorboards that would be disturbing. And having the cops come out every couple months to dig a hole in the yard would have been too much.

Is the same true in the West case? Did they dispose of their victims on premises? Have I made an error in my purchasing decision?

I'm thinking that, in these kinds of cases, we humans often attach our disgust for a person's crimes to anything and everything about them. Their cars, their homes, their easy chair, their kids, their in-laws, etc. The memory of the crime is linked to the name and the name is linked to these other items.

Is that irrational or overly sensitive? We hear the name Dahmer and we cringe. The irrational part is when we impart blame for the crime onto and then shun these other items, especially the kids, grandkids, in-laws, brothers ... houses.

Why we would do this I do not know. A throw back to the "evil spirit" days? We don't want to get contaminated? It would have been advantageous for a cave man to avoid and shun the evil plants, evil caves, evil animals where death and disease occurred and by extension anything that was made of, associated with or came from the evil things. I could see where this could expand to other things considered evil.

But if the house is clean and the bad guys did their dirty work elsewhere, well, then, this means you can take advantage of the irrational and pick up a maybe nice place for a steal!

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : clarity

Edited by AZPaul3, : more clarity


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Straggler, posted 08-21-2011 5:42 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2011 2:08 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 26 of 36 (630277)
08-23-2011 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
08-21-2011 7:28 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
AZPaul writes:

Why we would do this I do not know. A throw back to the "evil spirit" days? We don't want to get contaminated? It would have been advantageous for a cave man to avoid and shun the evil plants, evil caves, evil animals where death and disease occurred and by extension anything that was made of, associated with or came from the evil things. I could see where this could expand to other things considered evil.

Whilst that is probably a bit over simplistic I would suggest it is along the right lines. Our intuitive mode of thinking leads us to make such connections and whilst we can rationally override them the intuitive notions remain present.

Do you have a wedding ring? Would you swap that ring for one that was physically identical?

If not - Why not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2011 7:28 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2011 8:31 PM Straggler has responded
 Message 30 by fearandloathing, posted 08-24-2011 5:18 PM Straggler has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6214
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 27 of 36 (630305)
08-23-2011 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Straggler
08-23-2011 2:08 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
Do you have a wedding ring? Would you swap that ring for one that was physically identical?

I cannot form an emotional attachment to a specific set of atoms that form a symbolic item. The symbolic item is the seat of my attachment. If someone swapped my ring for an identical one without my knowledge it would make no difference. If it were truly identical then there would be no way to discern any difference. The emotion remains. So, to me, if I purposely swapped out an identical ring, emotionally, nothing has changed.

Straggler, I'm not so sure I am the right one to answer these types of questions. I don't think we will gain any insights into the OP questions by my answers since I am not the typical emotional creature that could represent the human norm.

I'm abnormal. Not good evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2011 2:08 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2011 1:55 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 28 of 36 (630332)
08-24-2011 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Straggler
08-10-2011 1:33 AM


Cognitive Restructuring
2) What led you to hold this belief

I would contend that this is the most important question.

In CBT there is a technique called cognitive restructuring where the patient frames their belief as a statement of fact.

They then evaluate the evidence they can provide to both support and refute their statement of fact.

Basically, this attempts to evade the confirmation bias and any selective abstraction that is occuring.

That John Jones implies that beliefs cannot be examined scientifically (i.e. rationally) indicates cognitive avoidance on his part i.e. 'I don't want to think about that'.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2011 1:33 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 29 of 36 (630347)
08-24-2011 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by AZPaul3
08-23-2011 8:31 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
AZ writes:

I'm abnormal. Not good evidence.

I agree. You have a heart of stone and a spirit of neurons.

AZ writes:

If someone swapped my ring for an identical one without my knowledge it would make no difference.

One last try.....

What if they later told you what they had done? Would the ring you now have mean any less to you? Does even he with the heart of stone place exhibit signs of imbuing physical things with some form of non-material meaning that exists only in the human mind?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2011 8:31 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 08-24-2011 7:47 PM Straggler has responded

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 30 of 36 (630370)
08-24-2011 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Straggler
08-23-2011 2:08 PM


Re: How Rational Are You?
Do you have a wedding ring? Would you swap that ring for one that was physically identical?

If not - Why not?

I don't have a wedding ring, but I do have several objects that wouldn't be the same to me if they were replaced with identical copies. I have my grandfathers pocket-watch he carried all his life after grandmother gave it to him, through ww1 til the day he passed, I have my fathers sidearm from Korea, and my mothers porcelain Beatrice Potter collection. None of these things would mean as much to me without the personal physical connection each of these items had to a loved one. A copy would probably invoke the same memories, but knowing that this item was physically theirs seems important to me.

Pretty irrational I know.

AbE

Upon further thought as to why these object mean something to me...

1... Each one has significance to the original owner beyond that of an every day item....tooth brush for example.

2... Memories I have of the significance of an object... when I look at certain Beatrice P stuff I gave to mom I remember her reaction, or the reaction she had to other BP stuff she got from my sis.

3... How I became to be the current owner of these things.

Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.


"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
— Hunter S. Thompson

Ad astra per aspera

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2011 2:08 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Straggler, posted 08-25-2011 5:39 PM fearandloathing has not yet responded

  
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