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Author Topic:   The Ultimate Question - Why is there something rather than nothing?
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 369 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 327 of 366 (630166)
08-22-2011 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
07-20-2011 1:58 AM


Thermodynamics
If we know that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, why can we not say that there has always been something?
If there has always been something, isn't that a sufficient reason for there being something rather than nothing?

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 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-20-2011 1:58 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

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 Message 329 by IamJoseph, posted 08-23-2011 12:10 AM Dogmafood has replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 369 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 346 of 366 (630281)
08-23-2011 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by IamJoseph
08-23-2011 12:10 AM


Re: Thermodynamics
IamJoseph writes:
It's far more intriguing to confront the reality facing us.
The reality facing us is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The fact that there is a vanishing point on the horizon does not mean that there is nothing beyond it. The Universe may not have always been but it did not pop out of nothing. Even if wherever it popped out of is undefinable.
Our entire reality indicates causality. Why would you suspect that it does not exist on the other side of the hill just because you can not see over the hill?
Or are you (and others) suggesting that energy can neither be created nor destroyed except for that one time?

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 Message 329 by IamJoseph, posted 08-23-2011 12:10 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by cavediver, posted 08-23-2011 4:08 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 352 by IamJoseph, posted 08-23-2011 8:19 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 369 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 349 of 366 (630295)
08-23-2011 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by cavediver
08-23-2011 4:08 PM


Re: Thermodynamics
Remember, one mark of a great teacher is to balance the pain with the suffering.
This is a good idealisation, but what happens when your definition of "energy" breaks down?
My definition of energy never breaks down!
Seriously then, there is a change. Receding to the BB and the point where everything breaks down. No time, no space, no energy. There is a change from one reality to another. That other reality is indefinable but I don’t see why it can not exist.
My answer is that the definitions do not break down it is that they no longer apply.
Causality is an internal property of the Universe in those areas with a well-defined time dimension. If there is a minimum time (at the Big Bang), then you have found at least one point in which there is not a well defined time dimension - and hence a point at which naive concepts of causality cannot apply.
I understand.
If you were to picture the Universe in your mind, would you see it from the inside or the outside? As soon as I imagine an outside to the Universe it becomes incorporated.
Well, you have managed to find a point for which there is no clear definiton of energy, nor a clear sense of causality. So I would have to ask: what do you mean by "created" and "destroyed"?
I mean into or out of existence. Whatever the energy was before it was energy, it still existed.
I guess that I am supporting the idea of an oscillating infinite continuum. (edit; and if such a thing exists I think that it answers the question why something rather than nothing.)
Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.

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 Message 347 by cavediver, posted 08-23-2011 4:08 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by IamJoseph, posted 08-23-2011 7:26 PM Dogmafood has not replied
 Message 357 by cavediver, posted 08-24-2011 12:35 PM Dogmafood has replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 369 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 358 of 366 (630395)
08-24-2011 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by cavediver
08-24-2011 12:35 PM


Re: Thermodynamics
So please understand that I'm trying to encourage rather than belittle.
And I think that you do it very well. I was just pointing out that I am partially aware of the extent of my ignorance. Blast away
At the equator I can either continue around the globe with a collapsing Universe back to the Big Crunch at the South Pole; or I can let the circles of latitude start to grow again, expanding ever outwards which is a more realistic model of our current understanding.
Is the answer dependant on which one of these scenarios is true?
If the Universe expands to the point of heat death, could that be considered a state of nothingness? Another point where there is nothing to be measured. Does time exist then/there? There is something now and there will be nothing later. So the answer might be that there is something now because it is now. There was nothing before and wait a bit and then there will be nothing again. Sounds about right or at least I can relate to it but it seems to require that everything came from nothing. Would you characterize it that way?
On the other hand, what would the big crunch look like 13 billion yrs later? Would it look like a big bang? Or is there no time after the crunch either? If the Universe does the BB/BC thing, does that answer the question (there is something because there has always been something) or is that an appeal to ‘brute’ fact that has been rejected as an answer?

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 Message 357 by cavediver, posted 08-24-2011 12:35 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by cavediver, posted 08-26-2011 7:12 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

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