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Author Topic:   The Ultimate Question - Why is there something rather than nothing?
Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 56 of 366 (625103)
07-21-2011 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
07-20-2011 1:58 AM


Dr Adequate writes:
Indeed, if anything constituted an explanation then the existence of everything was contingent on that thing, then that thing would stand in need of an explanation, and so wouldn't be the answer we were looking for.
This is false. William Lane Craig provides a concise answer to the above assertion. For this reason I will quote it directly.
First, in order to recognize an explanation as the best, one needn't have an explanation of the explanation. This is an elementary point concerning inference to the best explanation as practiced in the philosophy of science. If archaeologists digging in the earth were to discover things looking like arrowheads and hatchet heads and pottery shards, they would be justified in inferring that these artifacts are not the chance result of sedimentation and metamorphosis, but products of some unknown group of people, even though they had no explanation of who these people were or where they came from. Similarly, if astronauts were to come upon a pile of machinery on the back side of the moon, they would be justified in inferring that it was the product of intelligent, extra-terrestrial agents, even if they had no idea whatsoever who these extra-terrestrial agents were or how they got there. In order to recognize an explanation as the best, one needn't be able to explain the explanation. In fact, so requiring would lead to an infinite regress of explanations, so that nothing could ever be explained and science would be destroyed. So in the case at hand, in order to recognize that intelligent design is the best explanation of the appearance of design in the universe, one needn't be able to explain the designer.
Source: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticl...
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-20-2011 1:58 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Panda, posted 07-21-2011 12:08 PM Black Cat has replied
 Message 58 by Stile, posted 07-21-2011 12:16 PM Black Cat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 60 by bluegenes, posted 07-21-2011 12:40 PM Black Cat has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 59 of 366 (625108)
07-21-2011 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Panda
07-21-2011 12:08 PM


Where does he "mis-quote-mine" Dawkins?
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Panda, posted 07-21-2011 12:08 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Panda, posted 07-21-2011 12:53 PM Black Cat has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 61 of 366 (625111)
07-21-2011 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by bluegenes
07-21-2011 12:40 PM


Am I not allowed to reply to one of Dr A's initial thoughts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by bluegenes, posted 07-21-2011 12:40 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by bluegenes, posted 07-21-2011 1:14 PM Black Cat has replied
 Message 71 by Stile, posted 07-21-2011 2:33 PM Black Cat has seen this message but not replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 64 of 366 (625116)
07-21-2011 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Panda
07-21-2011 12:53 PM


If you're going to say he mis-quote-mined Dawkins, don't you have to show how he did so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Panda, posted 07-21-2011 12:53 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Panda, posted 07-21-2011 3:27 PM Black Cat has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 65 of 366 (625118)
07-21-2011 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by bluegenes
07-21-2011 1:14 PM


I was responding to Dr A's initial thought because it was faulty. One doesn't need an explanation of the explanation for it to be the best explantion. Therefore, God answers the question why there is something rather than nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by bluegenes, posted 07-21-2011 1:14 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2011 1:50 PM Black Cat has not replied
 Message 69 by bluegenes, posted 07-21-2011 1:52 PM Black Cat has not replied
 Message 82 by Dr Jack, posted 07-22-2011 4:17 AM Black Cat has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 98 of 366 (625396)
07-23-2011 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Dr Jack
07-22-2011 4:17 AM


Thank-you for your kind response Mr. Jack. You're right, I understand my error. bluegenes and Dr. A were trying to explain the same thing to me, but it makes more sense the way you explained it.
The question does seem impossible to answer. The only thing I can think of is that God is eternal, meaning He had no beginning and He has no end. That still doesn't answer the question of why He is there instead of not there, it just means He has always been there. The why seems impossible to answer.
Also, thank-you Stile for your polite replies to my posts.
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Dr Jack, posted 07-22-2011 4:17 AM Dr Jack has seen this message but not replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 150 of 366 (626603)
07-30-2011 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Panda
07-21-2011 3:27 PM


It doesn't appear to me that W.L.C mis-represented Dawkins. He was summarizing Dawkins' arguments not quoting him directly. Can you please explain to me how how Craig's summarization sentence affected or distorted what Dawkins actually wrote? Is it because he didn't include the words "so far"?
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Panda, posted 07-21-2011 3:27 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Panda, posted 07-30-2011 1:51 PM Black Cat has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 152 of 366 (626716)
07-31-2011 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Panda
07-30-2011 1:51 PM


No, he didn't claim Dawkins had written that. From the introductory sentence it doesn't seem clear whether his intention was to quote directly or to summarize. W.L.C does not explicitly say that he intended to quote directly. That's something you're assuming based on your reading of the sentence.
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Panda, posted 07-30-2011 1:51 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Panda, posted 07-31-2011 1:02 AM Black Cat has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 154 of 366 (626721)
07-31-2011 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Panda
07-31-2011 1:02 AM


The list is not direct quotes, Craig never claims that they are. All he did was replace "crane so far" with "explanation". This doesn't compromise the meaning of the sentence, it simply makes it more understandable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Panda, posted 07-31-2011 1:02 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Panda, posted 07-31-2011 1:42 AM Black Cat has replied
 Message 159 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-02-2011 11:24 AM Black Cat has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 156 of 366 (627383)
08-02-2011 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Panda
07-31-2011 1:42 AM


Again, there's no clear evidence that he intended to quote Dawkins directly. Second, his summation of Dawkins' main points is accurate, that can easily be seen from the quotes you provided. Craig is not obligated to quote whole paragraphs based on what you feel he should inlude and not include.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Panda, posted 07-31-2011 1:42 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by frako, posted 08-02-2011 10:20 AM Black Cat has replied
 Message 160 by Panda, posted 08-02-2011 11:28 AM Black Cat has replied
 Message 161 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-02-2011 11:45 AM Black Cat has not replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


(1)
Message 158 of 366 (627389)
08-02-2011 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by frako
08-02-2011 10:20 AM


Very bad example. First, you claimed to be quoting me, something Craig did not do of Dawkins. Also, you altered the meaning of what I said, something Craig did not do of Dawkins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by frako, posted 08-02-2011 10:20 AM frako has not replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 188 of 366 (627741)
08-03-2011 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Panda
08-02-2011 11:28 AM


Panda writes:
I didn't claim that he did intend to quote Dawkins diectly.
Panda writes:
Doctor Craig claims he was quoting directly.
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Panda, posted 08-02-2011 11:28 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Panda, posted 08-03-2011 8:30 PM Black Cat has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 190 of 366 (627753)
08-03-2011 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Panda
08-03-2011 8:30 PM


Panda writes:
Doctor Craig claims he was quoting directly.
Panda writes:
This is a statement about what Dr. Craig actually did.
Since Dr. Craig actually did claim he was quoting directly, can you please show me where that is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Panda, posted 08-03-2011 8:30 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Panda, posted 08-03-2011 9:02 PM Black Cat has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 192 of 366 (627755)
08-03-2011 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Panda
08-03-2011 9:02 PM


Panda writes:
As Dr. A showed (in Message 161), Dr. Craig also acted as if he had quoted directly.
We aren't discussing whether he acted as if he had quoted directly. We are discussing whether he did actually claim he was quoting directly.
Again I'll ask, where did Dr. Craig actually claim he was quoting directly?
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Panda, posted 08-03-2011 9:02 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Panda, posted 08-03-2011 9:32 PM Black Cat has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 194 of 366 (627757)
08-03-2011 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Panda
08-03-2011 9:32 PM


Dr. Craig writes:
On pages 157-8 of his book, Dawkins summarizes what he calls "the central argument of my book." It goes as follows:
Panda writes:
It is Dr. Craig claiming that he is quoting Dawkins directly.
No it's not. He cites Dawkins' work but he does not indicate that he intends to quote any part of Dawkins' book directly.
For the third time I'll ask, where did Dr. Craig actually claim he was quoting directly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Panda, posted 08-03-2011 9:32 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Panda, posted 08-03-2011 9:55 PM Black Cat has replied

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