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Author Topic:   Water As An Element of Fine-Tuning
RAZD
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Posts: 20156
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 64 of 100 (156623)
11-06-2004 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
11-01-2004 3:52 PM


you mean ...

.

.

.

... you can't sink the bismuth?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2004 3:52 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 20156
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 65 of 100 (156625)
11-06-2004 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:18 PM


maybe too late but ...
RustyShackelford writes:

but if water is the only concievable solvent, regardless of varying physical laws, which could expand when frozen, then I'd have to say that the existance of water is one of the stronger arguments for fine-tuning.

This assumes that life requires a liquid that freezes and thaws. Not necessarily so.

And what does it "fine tune" that is of note? It would operate in that manner in every place in the universe where there was water. Therefore the whole universe would be "tuned" and all you are saying is that "what is" looks like it is what it is because it is.

But then most anthropic arguments are like that.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:18 PM RustyShackelford has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 6:37 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 20156
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 78 of 100 (156858)
11-06-2004 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by RustyShackelford
11-06-2004 6:37 PM


Re: maybe too late but ...
ok, you pick the two easy ones to post opinions to, but dodge the middle one.

(1) obviously on a planet that does not freeze there is no problem. take mercury orbiting close to the sun with one side facing it and likely pools of molten metals.

the fact that it is possible for such a system to exist means that freezing is no more of a problem than finding one example of a solar system that just happens to have close enough to good conditions for life to evolve. you have not refuted this point.

(2) skipped

(3) most arguments against the anthropic principle involve ammonia life? or most arguments against water? please be more precise in your responses: attempt clarity of thought, it helps.

the skipped point was:

RAZD msg 65 writes:

And what does it "fine tune" that is of note? It would operate in that manner in every place in the universe where there was water. Therefore the whole universe would be "tuned" and all you are saying is that "what is" looks like it is what it is because it is.

The concept of "fine tuning" is to show that earth is special, but water on it's own does not do that: it exists throughout the universe and will be found in various forms on many planets in other star systems.

And all the argument about water is that we know that in one instance life is based on water. This makes it highly likely that other life that exists is also based on water, but it does not require it to be so. You are using a data set of one (1) to make extrapolations for the whole universe, while also denigrating others for not considering alternate universes?

Excuse me while I giggle. ROFGOL ...

thanks I needed that.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-06-2004 6:37 PM RustyShackelford has not yet responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 20156
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 80 of 100 (157002)
11-07-2004 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Silent H
11-07-2004 6:24 AM


Solar and geothermal energy (combined with our atmosphere of course) prevent the possibility of water freezing over completely in large bands across the globe.

even during the ice ages there were parts of the oceans that were open water.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
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 Message 81 by Tony650, posted 11-07-2004 4:36 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 20156
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 82 of 100 (157004)
11-07-2004 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Tony650
11-07-2004 4:36 PM


you actually have some evidence down near you: corral heads that are older than the last ice age and where cores show a continuous annual growth pattern.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Tony650, posted 11-07-2004 4:36 PM Tony650 has responded

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RAZD
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Posts: 20156
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 84 of 100 (157009)
11-07-2004 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Tony650
11-07-2004 4:36 PM


did a quick look for maps to show ...

this one doesn't show the ice coverage but you can see the area between australia and china is forested islands -- also the area of the GBReef.

here is one with the ice (estimated over water):

Main differences to previous ice ages would be the locations of the continents.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Tony650, posted 11-07-2004 4:36 PM Tony650 has responded

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 Message 85 by Tony650, posted 11-07-2004 5:08 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20156
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 86 of 100 (157017)
11-07-2004 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Tony650
11-07-2004 5:08 PM


that is correct. no the "ice-cube" earth is an image of the neanderthals dressed in furs following the hairy mammoths (which ate the dry grasses of the high desert ecosystem).

it is an image that plays to our memories of winters, but the reality is a little more complex. remember these events lasted for thousands of years, so life survived in ice-free areas.

the ice tied up a lot of "free moisture" available for percipitation so a lot of areas went to dessert conditions (first map)

thus there was substantial change to the climate around the world but not all went to ice.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Tony650, posted 11-07-2004 5:08 PM Tony650 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Silent H, posted 11-07-2004 5:29 PM RAZD has responded
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20156
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 91 of 100 (157026)
11-07-2004 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Silent H
11-07-2004 5:29 PM


DOH!
and the worst part is that I "corrected" it -- should a stuck with the first (like they tell you to do when taking tests...)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20156
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 95 of 100 (157179)
11-08-2004 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Silent H
11-08-2004 5:43 AM


sinking ice only half the story ...
The idea that the oceans would freeze solid if ice sank is based on the idea that once frozen it would not thaw.

for it to sink to the bottom it would have to pass through warmer water without thawing and then the bottom would have to be colder than the freezing point.

thermal conductivity of the earth means there is alway a flow from the center outward (yes in billions of years the earth will get colder) that keeps the mantle at a temperature well above 32F\0C

This is a fairly accessible geology site that discusses earth temperature and the different layers:
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/planets/earth/Inside.shtml

Mantle: Under the crust is the rocky mantle, which is composed of silicon, oxygen, magnesium, iron, aluminum, and calcium. The upper mantle is rigid and is part of the lithosphere (together with the crust).

Convection (heat) currents carry heat from the hot inner mantle to the cooler outer mantle. The mantle is about 1,700 miles (2,750 km) thick. The mantle gets warmer with depth; the top of the mantle is about 1,600° F (870° C); towards the bottom of the mantle, the temperature is about 4,000-6,700° F (2,200-3,700° C). The mantle contains most of the mass of the Earth. The Gutenberg discontinuity separates the outer core and the mantle.

Surface and crust: The Earth's surface is composed mostly of water, basalt and granite. Oceans cover about 70% of Earth's surface. These oceans are up to 3.7 km deep. The Earth's thin, rocky crust is composed of silicon, aluminum, calcium, sodium and potassium.

This site talks about the crust:
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/vwlessons/lessons/Earths_layers/Earths_layers4.html

The temperatures of the crust vary from air temperature on top to about 1600 degrees Fahrenheit (870 degrees Celcius) in the deepest parts of the crust.

Oceanic crust being significantly thinner than continental crust means that there would be more thermal conductivity, more flow of temperature, through the oceanic crust.

Ice sinking could actually cause the oceans to be warmer than they are because it would cause more mixing of the water as the thawed bottom ice water would rise to the surface and the ice blocks sank. This would add convection heat transfer into the system.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Silent H, posted 11-08-2004 5:43 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Silent H, posted 11-08-2004 9:09 AM RAZD has not yet responded
 Message 97 by Loudmouth, posted 11-08-2004 1:29 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20156
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 98 of 100 (157329)
11-08-2004 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Loudmouth
11-08-2004 1:29 PM


Re: sinking ice only half the story ...
unfrozen sea water is always warmer than about -2 celcius I believe

yes, based on my experience that would be about right ... we have an annual swim for winter solstice in buzzards bay MA ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Loudmouth, posted 11-08-2004 1:29 PM Loudmouth has not yet responded

  
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