Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,824 Year: 4,081/9,624 Month: 952/974 Week: 279/286 Day: 0/40 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


(1)
Message 32 of 330 (635012)
09-25-2011 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ICANT
09-25-2011 2:23 AM


Was Elijah raptured?
quote:
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
So we have a record of two men who have been raptured out.
A bit off topic, yet I always found it interesting that rather then resting from his labors after having been allegedly raptured off the earth, Elijah apparently continued with his appointed task of prophesying, limited only by the fact that he was now in heaven, and so, would henceforth be forced by due circumstance to accomplish all his prophesying via snail mail.
A perfect example is the letter found in 2nd Chronicles which he is alleged to have sent King Joram years after his abduction.
How exactly one goes about posting miraculous letters dispatched from heaven describing bowel ruptures and addressed to monarchs is left unresolved, as is how one goes about determining the authenticity of such a purported letter?
Perhaps it was postmarked ''Heaven'? Then again, maybe God simply transported him to another earthbound location.
Regardless, we find Elijah being kept busy long after he disappeared from from the scene
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ICANT, posted 09-25-2011 2:23 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ICANT, posted 09-27-2011 1:34 AM Bailey has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 34 of 330 (635778)
10-01-2011 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ICANT
09-27-2011 1:34 AM


Regarding the Timing of Elijah's Abduction ..
ICANT writes:
weary writes:
Regardless, we find Elijah being kept busy long after he disappeared from from the scene
What did you use to draw that conclusion.
The text from a common bible (as opposed to forced theological projections, etc.).
After Elijah had killed the prophets of Baal he fled unto mount Horab because Jezebel was going to kill him.
While he was there God came to him and told him to go an anoint Jehu king over Israel, Hazael over Syria and Elisha to take his place.
Although I'll entertain your defence below, it's irrelevancy to the point of discussion has been duly noted.
Here is the text for that.
quote:
19:15 And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria:
19:16 And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.
If you check it out Jehu followed Jehoram who ruled only 8 years as King.
Remember you said that ..
So Jehoram was dead when Elijah anointed Jehu King over Israel.
He also anointed Elisha to take his place.
It was not until these was done that Elijah was caught up.
Is that why the reader of 2nd Kings finds Elisha interacting with three kings reigning prior to Jehu, after Elijah is abducted?
It should also be noted you're propensity to perform such flagrant apologetic gymnastics appears both transparent and a hindrance to studying. And so, there's an overwhelming sense you're being rather disingenuous or naive (alternatively I suppose you could be bold faced lying or just fuckin' with me, though I prefer not to believe the latter(s)). You are better.
That said, one must consider these particular booklets strive to present history from a theological perspective, as an apparent display of God's acting and immanence through history, yet in accord with the respective dogmas of the day.
I'd agree we come closer to something we could call history in the books of Kings and Chronicles, as opposed to perhaps a booklet written in the fashion of Samuel which, though referencings actual people and places that existed, consists more of political polemics (seemingly written in the style of fable employing mythological elements) than pure historical documents.
However, that the various booklets of Kings and Chronicles appear to have met their fate as an amalgam of sorts regarding the common religious doctrine of the day, after incorporating elements of unquestioned wisdom tradition, an unquestioning (and naive) dogma of God immanent in history and events, as well as a very unsophisticated, and even gullible perspective on the prophetic tradition ironically does not appear to be working in your favor.
When the above is united with the fact Jehoram Ben Ahaz of the Northern Kingdom of Yisrael had a brother named Ahaziah, while Jehoram Ben Jehoshaphat of the Southern Kingdom of Yudah had a son by the same name (Ahaziah, that is) - each representing their northern and southern kingdoms respectively, learning of these details is bound to become even more challenging. Nonetheless, it shouldn't be too taxing to demonstrate your oopsy so let's begin.
The booklet of 2nd Kings begins by telling the reader Joram Ben Ahaz succeeded his brother Ahaziah who did not have a son and took control of the northern kingdom during the 18th year of King Jehoshaphat’s reign in the south (and the second year of Joram Ben Jehoshaphat’s co-reign with his father). Link
The 2nd chapter tells us Elisha received a double portion of Elijah juice directly after he allegedly witnessed the abduction of his Master and how some were so concerned they went and looked for Elijah in case he was just transported to a nearby valley or something else occured, though they were unable to locate his body. Link
Finally, after Elisha then has 2 bears mutilate a group of 42 children for taunting him about his male pattern baldness, the third chapter begins to plainly tell us how Joram ben Ahaz (as well as the other Joram’s father, Jehoshaphat, and the King of Edom) interacted with a freshly anointed Elisha, who were all kings prior to Jehu’s anointing mind you. Link
2nd Kings 3:11 writes:
~ Jehoshaphat asked, Is there no prophet of the Lord here that we might seek the Lord’s direction?
One of the servants of the king of Israel answered, Elisha son of Shapat is here; he used to be Elijah’s servant.
3:12 ~ Jehoshaphat said, The Lord speaks through him.
So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to visit him.
So obviously if Elijah was popping in and out of the Yisraeli political scene to oversee the occasional anointing of a king such as Jehu years later or write one a letter of criticism such as the reprimand located in 2nd Chronicles, he was not permanently ‘raptured’ in the fashion which you claim.
Perhaps those who had questioned Elisha's story were not too far off with their concerns regarding Elijah's whereabouts.
Ultimately, a lot of time and energy have been expended attempting to 'reconstruct' both the chronology of these events and the history of these times with scholars proposing numerous theories - none of which have found unanimous support.
This should surprise no one and also serve as an indicator that I'm not trying to convince you.
Now back to the OP topic.
Good idea brother
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : fix quotes ..

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ICANT, posted 09-27-2011 1:34 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024