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Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 241 of 330 (872317)
02-25-2020 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Tangle
02-25-2020 6:32 AM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
Of course I'm not going to bet about such things. I'm posting what seems to make sense but if it doesn't pan out so be it. My faith is certainly not grounded in my own ideas, it's grounded in God's word. I can be wrong but He can't.

I would point out in this case, however, that I was going on my own subjective impressions at that other time, and this time all the signs are quite objective as you can see for yourself. That doesn't mean I've got it right this time either, but it isn't the same thing and again, it will either pan out or it won't. I'd point out also that I'm not predicting a date as I did the other time. All I'm saying here is that IF Francis is the Antichrist THEN it's going to have to come fairly soon. If it does I'll be gone -- as will some of your acquaintances no doubt -- and you may have to rethink a few things.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2020 6:32 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2020 7:25 AM Faith has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7439
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 242 of 330 (872318)
02-25-2020 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
02-25-2020 6:59 AM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
Faith writes:

...this time all the signs are quite objective as you can see for yourself.

Objective? What? You're making up all kinds of crap out of thin air.

That doesn't mean I've got it right this time either,

Of course you haven't got it right - I personally guarantee it.

it will either pan out or it won't.

You're so glib about this stuff - all you care about is searching for silly signs that you're right. It never occurs to you that when it doesn't work out that it's you that was wrong.

I'd point out also that I'm not predicting a date as I did the other time. All I'm saying here is that IF Francis is the Antichrist THEN it's going to have to come fairly soon. If it does I'll be gone -- as will some of your acquaintances no doubt -- and you may have to rethink a few things.

The history of these things - and there's a huge amount of it going back centuries - is that people like you start by making specific predictions then when they fail - because they always have to - the predictions become imminent but vague.

Another thing I can guarantee is that when this new prophecy of yours fails, you won't be rethinking anything but the next pile of nonsense.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 02-25-2020 6:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 02-25-2020 7:38 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 243 of 330 (872319)
02-25-2020 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Tangle
02-25-2020 7:25 AM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
What? Hey, be fair. I certainly know, and said, I was wrong about the Rosh Hashanah idea of a couple years ago.

And yes the signs I've described here ARE objective. You need to appreciate the meaning of that word.

But whatever, it's still the case if they pan out they pan out and if they don't, then I WAS WRONG. OK? Again, when I am talking about my own theories I can certainly be wrong. But God can't be wrong so when I am talking about scripture, even if its interpretation is not clear to me or anyone else, it is nevertheless the truth becauase it is God's truth.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2020 7:25 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2020 8:46 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 330 (872320)
02-25-2020 8:05 AM


The Ongoing Revelation Study: Into the Great Tribulation
So now I'm into the Great Tribulation proper with MacArthur's study, and finding it hard to keep track of the imagery. I'll try to sketch it out just to have some kind of reference for it.

6. I already described Chaper Six which gives the first six seals, the sixth one being stars falling from heaven and other such phenomena heralding the Day of the Lord, or Great Tribulation.

7. Chapter 7 is a kind of parenthesis before the Tribulation begins, where we see 144,000 men sealed by God's angels so they won't be harmed in the devastation that is coming. They are of the twelve tribes of israel, 1200 from each tribe, who are understood to be commissioned to preach the gospel as the Tribulation unfolds.

In the same chapter we see the "great multitude" from all tribes and nations of the world in heaven waving palm branches and praising God. We understand them to be people who came to faith in Christ by the preaching of the 144,000 we just saw. They are then part of the great company of saints who will be resurrected with glorified bodies before the Millennial Kingom comes.

8. Chapter 8 is the opening of the Seventh Seal which is the beginning of the Great Tribulation or Day of the Lord. When opened it reveals seven trumpets, each of which will initiate a judgment on the world. Four of them are given in this chapter. The first brings destruction of a third of the trees and all the green grass. The second brings destruction of a third of the life in the sea and ships on the sea. The third brings destruction of the fresh water bodies of the world, rives and lakes, as they become poisoned and kill people who drinks from them. The fourth brings the darkening of a third of the heavenly bodies, sun, moon and stars, so that they give only two thirds of their light by day and night.

Then we hear an angel flying through heaven announcing that the remaining three trumpets will bring "woes" which means even more horrific judgments on the Earth. (MacArthur's Bible translation has "eagle" instead of the angel of my KJV, and I looked it up and the Greek means "angel" but whatever. I don't like MacArthur's NASB, I think it has lousy English among other things.) He says he thinks the angel/eagle announces the woes as warning so that some may repent, and that seems right.

9. Chapter 9 then gives us the first two woes, and they are something new in the series of judgments, demons of hell released to torment and kill people, the first being "locusts" released from the "abyss" that look like horses with scorpion tails that cause extreme pain. They are forbidden to kill but they cause great pain over a period of five monts.

Then we get the release of four "angels" who are likely demons, who have been bound at the River Eurphrates, and this releases 200 million "horsemen" with breastplates with colors that MacArthur identifies as the colors of Hell, which are associated with the fire, smoke and brimstone or sulfuric fumes that issue from the lion-like mouths of the "horses."

By now over half of the world population has been killed by one means or another, and the chapter ends by saying the remainder refused to repent of their sins.

10. The tenth chapter with the eleventh are a sidebar apart from the chronology to this point, so the seventh trumpet which is the third woe is on hold. A great angel comes down and announces that this will end the judgments on the Earth. He carries a small scroll which John is told to eat.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


  
jar
Member
Posts: 32355
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 245 of 330 (872321)
02-25-2020 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
02-25-2020 6:10 AM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
Faith writes:

Time will tell.

Time has already told. The Tribulation and Rapture are simply easy cons to sell to willfully gullible fools.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 02-25-2020 6:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 02-28-2020 6:54 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7439
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 246 of 330 (872324)
02-25-2020 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
02-25-2020 7:38 AM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
Faith writes:

What? Hey, be fair. I certainly know, and said, I was wrong about the Rosh Hashanah idea of a couple years ago.

I don't think even you could say you were right it didn't bloody happen. Or am I underestimating you?

And yes the signs I've described here ARE objective. You need to appreciate the meaning of that word.

In exactly the same way as Nostradamus predictions are objective, ie. no connection to the word at all.

But whatever, it's still the case if they pan out they pan out and if they don't, then I WAS WRONG. OK? Again, when I am talking about my own theories I can certainly be wrong. But God can't be wrong so when I am talking about scripture, even if its interpretation is not clear to me or anyone else, it is nevertheless the truth becauase it is God's truth.

Crap.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 02-25-2020 7:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 02-25-2020 12:00 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 247 of 330 (872330)
02-25-2020 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Tangle
02-25-2020 8:46 AM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
No. Nostradamus is vague and ambiguous, and the signs I listed are sharp and objective. You obviously aren't to be taken seriously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2020 8:46 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2020 12:34 PM Faith has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7439
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 248 of 330 (872333)
02-25-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
02-25-2020 12:00 PM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
Faith writes:

No. Nostradamus is vague and ambiguous, and the signs I listed are sharp and objective. You obviously aren't to be taken seriously.

So sharp and objective that even you can't actually rely on them can you? Or do you feel brave enough to give us another date to be proved wrong about again?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 02-25-2020 12:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 1:31 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 249 of 330 (872349)
02-26-2020 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Tangle
02-25-2020 12:34 PM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
But you are missing the point. I don't have a date in mind at all, just the fact that if Francis is the Antichrist of the end times, since he's an old man it can't be far off. There is no date involved at all. The whole thing could come together at any moment, the disappearance of Christians most likely being the first event. I'm just saying the time in which it could happen, IF Francis is the Antichrist of the Tribulation, is limited to a fairly short period of years.
.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2020 12:34 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by PaulK, posted 02-26-2020 1:56 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 1:59 PM Faith has responded
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 02-26-2020 2:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 250 of 330 (872354)
02-26-2020 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
02-26-2020 1:31 PM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
But you are missing the point. I don't have a date in mind at all, just the fact that if Francis is the Antichrist of the end times, since he's an old man it can't be far off.

How can he be when the end times are in the “latter days” of the Diadochi Kingdoms (Daniel 8) and the Tribulation occurs before the destruction of the Herodian Temple (Mark 13, Matthew 24 and especially Luke 21) ?

And, of course, since there is no reason to believe it even could occur in the next few years, the logic surely indicates that Francis is not the AntiChrist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 1:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7439
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 251 of 330 (872355)
02-26-2020 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
02-26-2020 1:31 PM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
Faith writes:

But you are missing the point. I don't have a date in mind at all, just the fact that if Francis is the Antichrist of the end times, since he's an old man it can't be far off. There is no date involved at all. The whole thing could come together at any moment, the disappearance of Christians most likely being the first event. I'm just saying the time in which it could happen, IF Francis is the Antichrist of the Tribulation, is limited to a fairly short period of years.

So your predictions are neither ‘sharp nor objective’ and you know that you can not rely on them.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 1:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 4:46 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 252 of 330 (872357)
02-26-2020 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
02-26-2020 1:31 PM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
Faith writes:

... if Francis is the Antichrist of the end times, since he's an old man it can't be far off.


By that logic, if Napoleon was the AntiChrist, we've already missed the End Times. If Donald Trump's great-great-grandson is the AntiChrist we've got a while to wait. If Mickey Mouse is the AntiChrist Disney is going to make a lot of money from it.

When you make a silly if, you get a matching silly consequence.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 1:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 253 of 330 (872488)
02-28-2020 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Tangle
02-26-2020 1:59 PM


Exactness, Precision -- to What End?
I didn't say my *predictions* are sharp and objective, what I said is that the signs i observed are sharp and objective: an exact time, an exact calculation, not ambiguous like Nostradamus' supposed prophecies.

However, they are not signs from scripture, they are signs I personally observed and that means they can't be relied on the way a scriptural prophecy could be. And even then although we know the prophecy is true sometimes we are not given information that would lead to exact timing.

The generation of Jews in Judea when Christ was born had an exact calculation from the book of Daniel to tell them their Messiah was at the very door and yet they missed Him. Lack of faith. Anna and Simeon, two people who spent all their time in the temple praying knew because they were listening to God, but the rest had no faith. Even the disciples were unsure. But that's scriptural prophecy, that's not a nobody's observations such as mine are.

There is an amazing exactness to the scripturally given timing of the Tribulation period, though, exact and often repeated, as if God wants those struggling through that time not to lose hope but to be able to know that rescue is coming and they can count the days. Even if they are in pain, even if they are without food and water, even if they can't breathe because of the smoke, even if they are terrified of the demon hordes running amok. They can look to the scripture and pray and count and count and pray.

All I continue to say for my own observation is that IF Francis is the Antichrist of the Tribulation, THEN it must be very close because he is an old man. But the premise may be wrong you see. In that case I find it hard to explain such interesting signs that marked his election to the papacy if he's not the Antichrist. A big waste of amazing exactness and pregnant implications. Nothing in God's world is accidental you see, it all has SOME kind of meaning even when we can't recognize it, but in this case the signs are SO precise. Interesting at the very least. I would think anyone could affirm that. Wait and see.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 1:59 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 5:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 254 of 330 (872489)
02-28-2020 5:03 AM


Revelation Unfolding bit by bit
It must be that Revelation pauses to give hope by showing His people at work to preach the gospel through the worst period of time possible on planet Earth. There will be many who take hope from that, although there will also be many, possibly many more, who despise it and even kill the messengers.

So in Revelation Seven we have a pause before the Seventh Seal is opened in which we are shown the 144.000 Jewish men sealed for the work of preaching as the world is coming down around them. We even get to see in the same chapter a great multitude who believe the gospel, though they died for their belief, in heaven praising God.

So now in Chapter Eleven before the Seventh Trumpet is blown, which will release the last seven plagues onto the Earth, we are shown Two Witnesses who preach the gospel in Jerusalem through the entire last three and a half years of the Tribulation period. We are told that they are hated and then eventually killed by people who celebrate their death, people who find the gospel offensive. But others must believe them and join the martyrs, or just manage to escape death before Jesus comes back. An amazing time. I'm sure I could not have the physical stamina to survive even the mildest part of it.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7439
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 255 of 330 (872490)
02-28-2020 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
02-28-2020 4:46 AM


Re: Exactness, Precision -- to What End?
Faith writes:

I didn't say my *predictions* are sharp and objective, what I said is that the signs i observed are sharp and objective: an exact time, an exact calculation, not ambiguous like Nostradamus' supposed prophecies.

Sharp and objective observations would result in definitive conclusions. In your case they don't. Last time you had even more observations and gave us a date. Not possible this time it seems.

On top of that you're 'sharp and objective' observations are pure nonsense, simple confirmation bias. Your 666 stuff is the perfect example - utterly contrived to confirm an existing belief.

The generation of Jews in Judea when Christ was born had an exact calculation from the book of Daniel to tell them their Messiah was at the very door and yet they missed Him. Lack of faith.

There we have it. If faith is required to detect these 'sharp and objective' signs, they are - by definition, neither sharp nor objective. In fact the very opposite - totally obfuscated and very personally subjective.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 4:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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