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Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 256 of 330 (872491)
02-28-2020 6:06 AM


Amazing how the obvious can be denied.


Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by PaulK, posted 02-28-2020 6:22 AM Faith has responded
 Message 271 by Coragyps, posted 02-28-2020 3:19 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 257 of 330 (872493)
02-28-2020 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
02-28-2020 6:06 AM


While it may be objective fact that a crow and a gull attacked a dove released by the Pope it is not objectively a sign, let alone a sign that he is the AntiChrist.

Even if it were taken as a sign it has no clear and objective meaning.

That is obvious. Who could possibly deny it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 6:06 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 6:44 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 3:51 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 258 of 330 (872494)
02-28-2020 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by PaulK
02-28-2020 6:22 AM


The attack on the doves could be dismissed as coincidence of course, but that both of them were attacked the moment they left the Vatican window by two different birds is really rather amazing. The doves were to symbolize peace, a sort of prayer for peace in the world, and the crow and the seagull immediately attacked them as if to say "nope, no peace, you don't get to have your peace, we'll kill your peace." Not really much wiggle room in the interpretation it seems to me.

What I meant was that the facts themselves are clear and objective. That is they are precise and they are real and they are not vague or ambiguous. As for what they mean well thirteen is not a happy number in scripture, it is associated with Judas Iscariot for instance. And scoffing at the calculation of the 666 can only reflect an unthinking automatic dismissal because it's clear as a bell how it is derived and what it means.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by PaulK, posted 02-28-2020 6:22 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by PaulK, posted 02-28-2020 7:52 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 8:59 AM Faith has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 259 of 330 (872495)
02-28-2020 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
02-25-2020 8:15 AM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
jar writes:

Time has already told. The Tribulation and Rapture are simply easy cons to sell to willfully gullible fools.

We get your position. Basically, a large group of conmen, under the guise of Biblical Christianity, have warped and distorted the plain meanings of many of the stories and events mentioned in the Bible in order to profit off of such deception.

Perhaps you can give us an alternative view regarding these Biblical events, seeing as how you may be the *only* man in Texas who has read the Bible fully from cover to cover and at the same time stuck to your guns regarding the dishonesty of classical apologetics.

And what of John MacArthur? Is he simply another protege of the P.T. Barnum School Of Apolojartics?

The timing of this next news event is interesting. I just noticed it while researching MacArthur. SEC Brings Defrauding Charges against Son of Pastor John MacArthur. Of course even if true this charge does not automatically mean that MacArthur Sr. is a conman. From what I've heard of him, he is and has been in the past a reputable Bible Teacher.
John F. MacArthur


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 02-25-2020 8:15 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 02-28-2020 8:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 10:53 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 260 of 330 (872496)
02-28-2020 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
02-28-2020 6:44 AM


quote:
The attack on the doves could be dismissed as coincidence of course, but that both of them were attacked the moment they left the Vatican window by two different birds is really rather amazing

You may think so, but that does nothing to clarify the meaning.

quote:
The doves were to symbolize peace, a sort of prayer for peace in the world, and the crow and the seagull immediately attacked them as if to say "nope, no peace, you don't get to have your peace, we'll kill your peace." Not really much wiggle room in the interpretation it seems to me.

So if it is a sign it’s more likely related to the war in Syria.

quote:
What I meant was that the facts themselves are clear and objective. That is they are precise and they are real and they are not vague or ambiguous

And my point is that that isn’t important when the meaning - if any - is far from clear. Even your previous “signs” of the Rapture included things that were “clear” in your way - like the preacher talking about Rose Hashanah (which almost certainly was due to Rosh Hashanah being close).

quote:
And scoffing at the calculation of the 666 can only reflect an unthinking automatic dismissal because it's clear as a bell how it is derived and what it means

I’m scoffing at how you derive it. And the fact that there really is no reason to think that the Tribulation is close anyway, which would mean that Pope Francis is not the AntiChrist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 6:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32355
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 261 of 330 (872497)
02-28-2020 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Phat
02-28-2020 6:54 AM


the alternative view is really clear and simple.
Phat writes:

Perhaps you can give us an alternative view regarding these Biblical events, seeing as how you may be the *only* man in Texas who has read the Bible fully from cover to cover and at the same time stuck to your guns regarding the ********** of classical apologetics.

Gladly although it is just repeating what I have said here in the past.

The stories that have been included (as well as the ones excluded) are simply reflections of what the authors believed or wished to believe at the time they wrote the stories and all have either come true in the past or failed to come true. But all of the End Times stuff is simply failed prophecy. All of Revelation is failed prophecy. All of the apocalyptic writings included what was claimed to have been said by Jesus is just failed prophecy.

It really is that simple.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 02-28-2020 6:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7439
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 262 of 330 (872509)
02-28-2020 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
02-28-2020 6:44 AM


Faith writes:

The attack on the doves could be dismissed as coincidence of course

Of course it's not coincidence, it's blood biology. Crows will attack any bird that comes near its nest - always. I have a crows nest in my sycamore tree, this time of year the two breeding crows see-off sea gulls, pigeons, magpies and even squirrels all day long. There's aerial battles every few minutes here.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 6:44 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 9:10 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 263 of 330 (872510)
02-28-2020 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Tangle
02-28-2020 8:59 AM


Oh come on. I'm sure the Popes release doves from that window from time to time and it was a SEAGULL as well as a crow that IMMEDIATELY attacked them. Highly symbolic it seems to me. But clever clever people cdan always invent something to pretend they know what really happened. However, there are always going to be what are called proximate causes, natural reasons something happens perhaps. It's still symbolism.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 8:59 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 02-28-2020 9:19 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 266 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 10:20 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 10:58 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32355
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 264 of 330 (872512)
02-28-2020 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
02-28-2020 9:10 AM


LOL

Faith writes:

Oh come on. I'm sure the Popes release doves from that window from time to time and it was a SEAGULL as well as a crow that IMMEDIATELY attacked them.

And the Seagulls were all crying "Mine, Mine, Mine"

But clever clever people can always invent something to pretend basic biology is something mystical.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 9:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32355
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 265 of 330 (872513)
02-28-2020 9:28 AM


on Apocalyptic writings
The Apocalyptic stories today from all the Apologists marketing pre-Tribulation or Tribulation or Rapture are no different than the Apocalyptic stories in the Bible; folk marketing what the think or wish or fear is going to happen during the lifetime of their audience. And like all of the Apocalyptic stories in the Bible each and every modern iteration has failed to come true.

But it is good business and very profitable.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7439
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 266 of 330 (872516)
02-28-2020 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
02-28-2020 9:10 AM


Faith writes:

Oh come on. I'm sure the Popes release doves from that window from time to time and it was a SEAGULL as well as a crow that IMMEDIATELY attacked them.

Crows will attack ANYTHING that comes close to their nest - IMMEDIATELY. It's their job. Show me some unnatural behaviour and I still wouldn't be impressed but I would at least have to say it was a bit weird.

Highly symbolic it seems to me.

Absolutely natural behaviour is what it is. Seagulls do the same but extend it to people too.

It's still symbolism.

It's still bollox.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 9:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 267 of 330 (872519)
02-28-2020 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Phat
02-28-2020 6:54 AM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
Phat writes:

And what of John MacArthur? Is he simply another protege of the P.T. Barnum School Of Apolojartics?


You already have a whole thread for testing the conmen apologists - and you have admitted that you have no intention of actually testing them. So why do you waste our time with such questions?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 02-28-2020 6:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 02-28-2020 2:08 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 268 of 330 (872520)
02-28-2020 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
02-28-2020 9:10 AM


Faith writes:

... there are always going to be what are called proximate causes, natural reasons something happens perhaps. It's still symbolism.


I saw a crow eating mushrooms off my lawn once - symbolic of the Last Supper.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 9:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by jar, posted 02-28-2020 11:15 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32355
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 269 of 330 (872523)
02-28-2020 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by ringo
02-28-2020 10:58 AM


ringo writes:

I saw a crow eating mushrooms off my lawn once - symbolic of the Last Supper.

Only if it was served with focaccia and a nice Est! Est! Est!.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 10:58 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 270 of 330 (872541)
02-28-2020 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by ringo
02-28-2020 10:53 AM


Re: Another look at the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
Duly noted. I was merely responding to Faith's presentation of MacArthur's work.

jar was criticizing her conclusions, which extended to criticism of MacArthur since he was her source.

As I researched him, I noted the linked story. But yes, we can discuss it there if you want.

ringo writes:

So why do you waste our time with such questions?

we all waste each others time. Don't blame me for that one. get off your high horse and come join us for the Last Supper before the deadly Corvid-19 outbreak that may yet usher in the rapture!

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 10:53 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 02-28-2020 4:01 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 283 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 7:33 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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