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Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Faith
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Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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(1)
Message 286 of 330 (872620)
02-29-2020 8:04 PM


The Antichrist in the Book of Revelation
Listening to MacArthur on Revelation 13 where a great beast comes up out of the sea with seven heads and ten horns, which he identifies as the Antichrist, but also the Emprie of the Antichrist with which he is closely aligned, comparing this beast to the Antichrist images in Daniel. The beast has characteristics of all the separate beasts in Daniel's visions, being "like a leopard" which was Greece in Daniel's image, with feet like a bear (Daniel's Medo-Persia image) and a mouth like a lion, the lion representing Babylon in Daniel. So this final Kingdom which is ruled by Antichrist, who has the same characteristics, combines all the qualities of the Gentile nations that have gone before into one. MacArthur thinks its seven heads represent the sequence of all the former empires Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, the Roman Empire, plus the revived Roman Empire which will have worldwide dominion and contain qualities of all former empires.

I still hold to the interpretation that a Pope will be the final Antichrist, though I'm one of very very few with this idea. MacArthur seems to have the familiar idea that this personality hasn't yet emerged onto the world stage but is waiting in the wings, someone relatively unknown with some political power but so far in the shadows. But in my view the revived Roman Empire is really the RCC which has a worldwide reach anyway, and was regarded by the Protestant Reformers as the continuation of the Roman Empire since the Pope was a political leader as well as the antichrist religions figure. There couldn't be any more close alignment of the Antichrist with his "kingdom" than the Pope with the RCC. I think the signs I listed for Francis do identify him as fitting the role. He's very old though so it's hard to see how he could be a world political leader for long. But he's popular and opinionated and why not?

Especially if he's empowered by Satahn. MacArthur does point out that Satan is behind the Antichrist in the Revelation images, and will probably possess the man himself, as he says was the case with Hitler. I've wondered about that myself. Hitler had a very odd style in some of his speeches. MacArthur thinks it was Satan speaking through him.

The other alternative that's a possibility is that the Pope will be the "false prophet" who promotes the Antichrist, as the Pope in Hitler's day did with Hitler. But it's the Pope who is identified by the 666 attached to the title that identifies him as occupying the place of the Son of God.

Well, I don't think it's very far off. What that means I can't say, could be few years or could be sooner.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith
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Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 287 of 330 (872623)
02-29-2020 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by PaulK
02-29-2020 12:38 AM


What makes a Sign a Sign
Your interpretation of the birds is certainly squishy if it goes anywhere beyond the wars of the last few years - and you did by citing it as evidence that Pope Francis is the AntiChrist. And it is quite reasonable to conclude that your “signs” aren’t signs.

Yes, but I didn't connect the birds to any event, just to the Pope himself. I hadn't thought of it at the time but in the study of the Tribulation period the Antichrist is represented as the first horse when the first seal is opened, the white horse which brings a false peace to the world. In the book of Daniel the Antichrist is interpreted as making a covenant with Israel which he will break at the midpoint of the seven years. Also, the white horse is immediately followed by the red horse of the second seal which represents war, its rider said to be given the power "to take peace from the Earth." All images of peace broken, the Antichrist's peace. As I say I hadn't thought of this before, but it does fit those symbols in the Book of Revelation.

Lightning strikes and bird attacks have happened before and will happen again without any clear meaning to be found.

Sure and the time 7:06 comes around twice a day too. However we do only get 2013 once and that's it. Got to wait a while for the next year with 13 in it.

HOWEVER, of course all these things happen naturally, but people commented on the timing of them, that's what's unusual. The date and time of Francis' election was unusual, even the seagull sitting on the chimney was unusual -- people commented on that. The lightning hitting St. Peter's was unusual -- and people commented on that too. It's the timing that takes all these things out of the ordinary and gives them meaning as signs.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
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Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 288 of 330 (872625)
02-29-2020 9:50 PM


One of the Seven Heads was Slain and Came Back to life
So what is that all about? if the seven heads represent kingdoms it would be the Roman Empire that was slain and came back to life. But elsewhere it is a man who is identified as dying and coming back to life. So MacArthur was speculating about that.

Some have interpreted it as the Protestant Reformation's killing the power that the RCC had had over Europe. That would fit the idea of a kingdom's being killed, or an empire, and the Reformers saw the RCC as the revived Roman Empire, or actually the continuation of it.

But MacArthur points out that it is a man who dies and comes back to life. I forget where that is in scripture at the moment. So he speculates that the Antichrist could be killed during the early part of the Tribulation and come back to life. But he doesn't believe that's possible under Satan's power so he isn't sure of that way of looking at it.

But I have the odd advantage of having seen Buzsaw's thread here, which I mentioned before in this thread, about two people who were actually dead but possessed by a demon that made them seem alive, one a Hindu religious practitioner, the other the witch/shaman of a tribe somewhere. So to my mind that is a real possibililtiy. If the Antichrist dies, either by violence or by natural causes, he can "come back to life" by Satan's possessing his body. According to Buzsaw's accounts people actually think such possessed bodies are alive. That was all news to me but I accept it and think that could happen with the Antichrist too. In any case he does have to be possessed by Satan, that's clear anyway, because it's really Satan who is ruling the world, something he's always wanted to do, and demanding worship too, the other thing he's always wanted to have.
.
.
..

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 289 of 330 (872627)
03-01-2020 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
02-29-2020 9:50 PM


Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
The more I think about it the more it really makes sense that the Antichrist must be possessed by Satan, that it must be Satan who acts rather than the man. Perhaps the man IS dead, though I'm not sure that's crucial to the point. The point is that this is Satan's hour, this is when he gets to be as God, which has been hia ambition from the beginning, the very reason he fell in the first place. Then when he acquired the rule of humanity and planet Earth he set up his demons as the various gods of the various tribes all over the world, but did he ever get his chance to be God with any of us? The Satanists certainly made and make him their god. There is a whole trible of Satanists somewhere in the Middle East I think. But we've had our own in the West, such as Alistair Crowley, celebrated on one of the Beatles' albums. Somehow people do manage to hate the beautiful Christ and prefer Satan to Him. Well, sin IS alluring, but to THAT extent? I guess so.

But I digress. the point is that the Abomination of Desolation has to be Satah himself presenting himself as God and demanding worship. From the Antichrist's body no doubt, whether living or dead, but it's important I think to know it's not the man doing it, but Satan himself, finally having his day. The Protestant Reformers, Luther in particular of course, identified the Pope as "sitting in the Temple presenting himself as God" already, as simply a function of his very position as Pope, called the "head of the Church" which is one of Christ's titles. That's enough to make him the Antichrist as the Reformers knew. From that point of view we don't have to wait for him to be revealed, since he's already been revealed, at the Reformation. But people have forgotten. They are now looking for another Antichrist.

Is the blasphemy of the Abomination of Desolation what triggers the worst of the judgments of God? The second half of the Tribulation period IS known as the Great Tribulation and people are warned of its terrors and woes in Revelation and by angels.

Back to the study then to see what MacArthur says about these things..

.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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frako
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Posts: 2904
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.5


(3)
Message 290 of 330 (872629)
03-01-2020 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
03-01-2020 2:06 AM


Re: Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
Think about it. Trump has to colour his face to seem normal. Cause he is dead. He is like god no law applies to him. He is worshipped by many, even though he clearly sins, 3 wives, porn stars, lying .... And whoever does not worship and praise him is an enemy. People wear his mark on their foreheads. He lived on 666 Avenue. What more evidence do you need trump is the Antichrist.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 291 of 330 (872646)
03-01-2020 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by frako
03-01-2020 5:14 AM


Re: Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
So Trump is an adulterer like Kennedy and Clinton and Johnson. If that's a disqualification for the Presidency then all those former Presidents should be impeached in retrospect. Besides, they all committed their adulteries while in office, but there is no hint of that with Trump.

He does not put himself above the law, what's been happening is that the Democrats keep making up laws to accuse him of violating, turning noncriminal acts into crimes.

Nobody treats Trump as a god, he's regarded as "one of us," that is why he is so popular, that and his caring about "us," working tirelessly to fulfill the promises he made, which the Democrats clearly do not.

The hatred the Left has for Trump is almost supernatural.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 292 of 330 (872652)
03-01-2020 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
03-01-2020 11:46 AM


Re: Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
I don’t believe that anyone has suggested that Trump be impeached for adultery. It is notable, however, that many Evangelicals suddenly changed their minds about the issue of character when Trump was candidate.

quote:
He does not put himself above the law, what's been happening is that the Democrats keep making up laws to accuse him of violating, turning noncriminal acts into crimes.

The usual lying to deny Trump’s guilt. Really the things you - or your talk show hosts - make up.

quote:
Nobody treats Trump as a god, he's regarded as "one of us," that is why he is so popular, that and his caring about "us," working tirelessly to fulfill the promises he made, which the Democrats clearly do not.

How’s he doing on eliminating the deficit? Or providing a better alternative to the ACA? Or - and this should be easy - releasing his tax returns?

quote:
The hatred the Left has for Trump is almost supernatural

I’ve seen plenty examples of more extreme hate for Obama. I guess that must be really supernatural - even Satanic. No wonder you love it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 03-01-2020 11:46 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 03-01-2020 1:34 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 293 of 330 (872655)
03-01-2020 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by PaulK
03-01-2020 12:55 PM


Re: Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
Actually some of us did change our minds. I started out thinking I couldn't vote for Trump because of his lifestyle, the adulteries etc., but it was his policies that made me change my mind. He was for all the things most evangelicals are for, and that made his personal sins irrelevant, as they should be. The alternative was a corrupt person nobody could stomach at all, and Trump has turned out to be well deserving of our trust as he has worked continually for all the things he promised.

Nobody is saying his record is perfect, but he continues to work and eventually the things he hasn't yet accomplished may well be accomplished. Meanwhile what he has already accomplished in keeping his promises Is laudable, beyond what most politicians do, far beyond.

there is no compar4ison between the hatred toward Trump and that for Obama. I don't even think hate describes how Obama was treated at all. His policies were strenuously opposed by many on the right. But he had the media completely on his side, while Trump has the media completely against him. THAT's an extreme difference. Trump really is hated in some personal way. Obama's policies were abhorred but not himself.

AbE: The hatred of Obama that is always being compared with the hatred of Trump is isolated instances, completely out of proportion with the blanket media blitz of hatred for Trump.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 294 of 330 (872657)
03-01-2020 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Faith
03-01-2020 1:34 PM


Re: Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
quote:
Actually some of us did change our minds. I started out thinking I couldn't vote for Trump because of his lifestyle, the adulteries etc., but it was his policies that made me change my mind. He was for all the things most evangelicals are for, and that made his personal sins irrelevant, as they should be

Let us just note that that realisation only turned up when it was convenient. Further, I think your real mistake was choosing adultery as the most important measure of character. There are worse issues with Trump.

quote:
Nobody is saying his record is perfect, but he continues to work and eventually the things he hasn't yet accomplished may well be accomplished. Meanwhile what he has already accomplished in keeping his promises Is laudable, beyond what most politicians do, far beyond.

Not really. Remember that he had a Republican Congress for the first half of his term and Republicans still hold the Senate.

His promises over the ACA are abandoned, he’s increased the deficit and seems to have no plans to even reduce it back to the level it was and he’s lied and is fighting hard in court to avoid releasing his tax returns.

quote:
there is no compar4ison between the hatred toward Trump and that for Obama

I’ll agree with that. Obama had it far worse.

quote:
I don't even think hate describes how Obama was treated at all. His policies were strenuously opposed by many on the right.

I’m not talking about the obstructionism. I’m talking about the conspiracy theories and the “Citizen’s Grand Jury” that was supposed to arrest him and the specious lawsuits intended to throw him out of office. Or even the ridiculous charge that he was a crypto-Muslim - which is serious when you consider the hatred of Islam in some parts of the Right.

quote:
But he had the media completely on his side, while Trump has the media completely against him. THAT's an extreme difference

But that doesn’t measure the magnitude of feeling at all. A lot of criticism - much of it deserved is hardly equivalent to claims that he plotted to detonate a nuclear device in the US. Or vigilantes planning to kidnap him.

quote:
Trump really is hated in some personal way. Obama's policies were abhorred but not himself.

No, there was a lot of personal hatred there. Though the hate for the ACA also reached levels of insanity rarely seen against Trump.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 295 of 330 (872672)
03-01-2020 11:40 PM


Who is The False Prophet, the Beast from the Earth?
Besides John MacArthur I've listened to some of the teachers at Jan Markell's Understanding the Times Radio, on the subject of the Antichrist. They all have a picture of a charming but evil man who will rule over the whole world, but they certainly don't have a Pope in mind, rather a much younger man, handsome, etc. As I listen to it I simply hear the RCC itself with its worldwide reach as the global Empire over which he rules, that would no doubt be extended in the time of his rule. Islam also has to have a part in this picture but I'm not sure how. The Pope has had discussions with top Muslim leaders so there is some rapprochement between the religions. Islam of course replaced the Eastern part of Christendom as a result of Mohammed's murderous conversion techniques, which occurred about the same time as the Bishop of Rome became Universal Bishop and therefore Pope, inaugurating the RCC that became the political as well as religious institution in Europe that it was at the time of the Reformation, which seriously undercut its power in the world.

But that's the wound to one of the seven heads of the beast that represents both the Antichrist and the Roman Empire in Revelation 13, that will be healed at the revival of this Empire in the last days. It is still possible, as MacArthur conjectures, that the Antichrist himself will somehow die and come back to life to fulfill this prophecy, which leads him to further conjectures about how Satan might bring about this miraculous "resurrection" through various subterfuges. Thanks to the thread Buzsaw posted that I keep mentioning in this regard, my own conjecture is that the "resurrection" would be Satan's possession of the dead body of this man. As I've said, I never knew it was possible for a demonic spirit to give a believable semblance of life to a corpse, never even crossed my mind, until I read Buzsaw's OP about two such possessed corpses who had not had any food or water for years, and were regarded as living people.

So that's my own thought about that part of the prophecy. But there's still a problem with the identity of another personality, a second Beast, this one rising from the Earth as the Antichrist Beast rose from the Sea. This one has one head with horns like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon. He's called the False Prophet and his role is to preach that the Antichrist should be worshipped, and an image that is created, an idol of the Antichrist. I don't have all this straight in my head yet, and the reason I bring it up is that I don't have much of an idea who this False Prophet might be. But from what I've heard of the teachers on this subject it's not clear to them either. Sometimes I think maybe he is the Pope and the Antichrist is more of a Hitler type who is unknown at this time, but what keeps me from that idea is that the 666 is given to identify the Antichrist, not the False Prophet, and that number is derivable from a title of the Pope, "Vicarivs Filii Dei." That leads me to think the False Prophet has to be the unknown who will arise at the end.

Perhaps we won't be able to identify these personalities before they appear on the world stage, and then it will be those going through the Tribulation after the Church has been raptured, who will identify them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 296 by PaulK, posted 03-02-2020 12:12 AM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 296 of 330 (872673)
03-02-2020 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
03-01-2020 11:40 PM


Re: Who is The False Prophet, the Beast from the Earth?
Buzsaw was hardly a reliable source. So I’m not surprised that you trust him.

Islam, of course, will oppose the Beast. Worshipping statues is contrary to a well-known teaching of Islam.


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 Message 295 by Faith, posted 03-01-2020 11:40 PM Faith has responded

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 Message 297 by Faith, posted 03-03-2020 4:53 AM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 297 of 330 (872716)
03-03-2020 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by PaulK
03-02-2020 12:12 AM


Demon Possession of Dead people.
Well, I'll post Buzzie's OP again. It's Message 1.

He starts with a Fox News report about a Hindu man who hadn't eaten or drunk anything for 66 years which reminded Buz of the story of a missionary to a remote tribe in New Guinea where the witch who ran things was 160 years old and similarly had not eaten or drunk anything for many years.

The missionary decided to fast and pray for three days to confront what he knew would have to be a demon possessing her, but when he did she fell down dead, and he understood that to mean that the demon had been possessing her dead body all along. That is of course why she didn't need to eat or drink anything. Same then with the Hindu.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by PaulK, posted 03-03-2020 5:38 AM Faith has responded
 Message 302 by Tangle, posted 03-03-2020 2:17 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 298 of 330 (872717)
03-03-2020 5:18 AM


The Roman/Babylonish Religion of the Tribulation period
As I keep listening to MacArthur's studies of the Book of Revelation, especially his talk on Revelation 17 it's clear that the Roman Church is going to have a big part in the formation of the end times world religion. The role of the "Virgin Mary" comes up in this connection, making me wonder if she figures in these scenarios somewhere.

Anyway, here's where MacArthur on how the RCC has to be the main form of the world religion of the last days.

.
.
.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 299 of 330 (872718)
03-03-2020 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Faith
03-03-2020 4:53 AM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
So the story of your first “possessed corpse” has zero evidence of possession or being a corpse. The guy was probably just a Hindu faker (and no I don’t mean “fakir”).

The second is an anecdote that was over 30 years old when retold and second-hand at best. On top of Buzsaw’s unreliability. Not exactly good evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 03-03-2020 4:53 AM Faith has responded

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 Message 300 by Faith, posted 03-03-2020 5:48 AM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 300 of 330 (872719)
03-03-2020 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by PaulK
03-03-2020 5:38 AM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
Oh I don't expect you to accept anything I say about anything. Maybe someday you won't be able to avoid it.

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