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Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PaulK
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Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 46 of 246 (871763)
02-12-2020 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
02-11-2020 7:06 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
As usual I don't really want to debate, I want to preach. Of course. The whole idea is to get people saved, especially those who don't want to be saved. But debate is certain to happen. This is EvC after all.

Of course you don’t want to debate but debate is the purpose of this site. If you want to preach without the truth being allowed a look in, go elsewhere.

I don’t believe that you are interested in saving anyone either. If you were this would be a very odd topic to choose. Salvation is not a matter of believing as you do. Nor is it a matter of spreading falsehood and hate.

quote:
So I've been told here that I am the last one to expect to be raptured, I've even been told I AM the Antichrist. I'm that evil in the eyes of some here.

Of course you’re evil. I’m convinced that you are hoping for the Antichrist, would worship the Antichrist, maybe even believe that you’re the Antichrist. But you certainly aren’t the Antichrist.

quote:
The Reformation identification of the Pope is often rejected just because there is a succession of Popes while scripture seems to point to a singular figure who appears at the very end of time before Christ returns, as THE Antichrist. Well, the biblical evidence for the papacy as the Antichrist is very strong. The only conclusion has to be that one of them, the very last one, will be the singular figure identified in scripture.

If there is such a great case, feel free to present it.

quote:
And there is one interesting way he can be identified by that number 666 too: It's not clear where the Latin title occurs, whether in his tiara or mitre or throne or what, but the Latin title Vicarivs Filii Dei contains Roman numerals (Latin is interesting that way. Many languages have numbers or Gematria assigned to the letters of their alphabet, but Latin has them embedded IN their alphabet. No, I don't know if this is unique to Latin but it may be. ANYWAY, add up the Roman numerals of that title, a title which is certainly a name of the Pope, "Substitute for the Son of God" or "In the Place of the Son of God." The title alone identifies him as the Antichrist, but add up the numerals: they add up to 666.

Vicarius refers to a subordinate appointed to act in the place of his superior. That title identifies the Pope as serving Jesus which is hardly true of the Antichrist. Simply extracting the letters that correspond to Roman Numerals and adding them up is a dubious procedure too - as everyone knows IV is 4, not 6.

The rest is just superstition. I’m sure you can come up with similar things about other people if you try. That’s why there have been so many alleged “Antichrists”

quote:
So, the "rational" people at EvC will likely just scoff at all this of course, all this symbolism and odd occurrendes. Just "coincidences" of course. I expect that and we can argue it, but the point here is mostly to alert people to possibilities that MIGHT happen, that you would need to know about IF THEY DID happen. OK?

I would think that you should at least wait until you have a plausible case. Unless the real point is to smear the Roman Catholic Church.

quote:
So THE Antichrist is to reign during the Seven Year period called the Great Tribulation, after Chrstians have disappeared from Planet Earth. He'll be worshipped, at least at first. Then all Hell is to break loose.

According to the Gospels, the Tribulation is shortened to protect the Elect (Mark 13:20) and Jesus is to gather his Saints after the Tribulation (Mark 13:24-27). That hardly sounds like the Rapture taking the Christians away first.

Face it, Biblical End Times prophecies are a mess. As I’ve shown.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 02-11-2020 7:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 34709
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 47 of 246 (871765)
02-12-2020 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
02-11-2020 7:06 PM


If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
The point to my post is that if the indicators I've given are valid, the final days must be very close. Pope Francis is 83 years old already. If he's the Antichrist who reigns during the Seven Year Tribulation he's going to have to live to be much older. But even a few years older is getting very old, so if he's It the Tribulation must be very very close.

I think God really did give us signs of Francis' specialness in some way, such as the thirteens in March 13, 2013, the day he was elected Pops, which occurred at 7:06 PM, which can be written 6:66, the attack on his "peace" doves by the crow and seagull, even the seagull sitting during the deliberations on the chimney where the Pope is announced, seems ominous. Even the lightning hitting St. Peter's when the previous Pope resigned. And that's just specific to Francis.

The papacy itself is easily identified with the Latin Vicarivs Filii Dei whose Roman numerals add up to 666. This is the only derivation of that number I've seen that is at all convincing, coming as it does within the phrase itself that actually defines the Antichrist, usurper of the role of Christ, and very tellingly in the language of Rome too, the seat of the Antichrist so designated. No, Christ needed to delegate nobody in His place, that is itself the same blasphemy, because Christ is present everywhere and available to all of us without a mediator. Christ IS our Mediator, the one who defends us before God. AbE: Another indicator of the Pope's identiy as Antichrist is that the RCC calls him "the head of the Church," but scripture in two places calls Christ the head of the Church. Just another way the Pope is the usurper of the role of Christ, which is the definition of Antichrist. /AbE.

It was the Protestant Reformers who identified the papacy as the Antichrist from scripture. I didn't invent the idea. And ordinary Catholics are not targeted. If they put all their trust in Christ they may be saved, but not if they worship or pray to Mary or make too much of the Pope, or the pagan superstitions of the RCC such as the rosary or burning candles or bowing down to statues and so on.

Robert Jeffress whose talk at "Understanding the Times" radio inspired me to write a post on this subject, gives four reasons at the end of his talk why he believes in a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church:

  1. The Tribulation has two purposes, the first is to save a multitude of Jews and Gentiles who resisted salvation up to this point and have to be saved the hard way. The multitude is pictured in Revelation 7 standing before the throne of God waving palm branches. The second purpose is to pour out God's judgments on the unbelieving world, which judgments are depicted in various ways in the Book of Revelation.

  2. The Church is not mentioned in the Book of Revelation during the events of salvation or God's judgment, because Christians ARE saved and are free of God's wrath, which is for the unbelievers. The Church is addressed up to Revelation 3, and depicted in heaven in chapters 4 and 5, and again from Revelation 19, when Jesus returns to Earth with a multitude following Him, but in between there is no mention of the Church at all.

  3. In Revelation 3 the Church at Philadelphia is promised by Christ to be "kept from the trial that is to come upon all the Earth" if they change their ways and become obedient to Him.

  4. Romans 8:1 says that believers are not appointed to God's wrath, "there is no condemnation" to those who are in Christ. We are to undergo persecution and tribulation in this life, of course, but the Great Tribulation is The Day of the Lord, when He sends judgment on the entire Earth, and that is what believers are saved from. Jesus took the wrath of God on the cross and if we are in Him we are saved from that wrath ourselves. (If God shortens the tribulation before it kills everybody, that doesn't mean He's going to shorten the period of seven years, but I haven't studied this point.)

Again, the point of my message is that if Pope Francis is the final Antichrist these events are all VERY close.

If you aren't convinced, oh well, but if Christians do suddenly disappear, while there will certainly be all sorts of rationalizations offered to explain it away, maybe you'll be convinced then and maybe my post will be of some use to you in leading you to more information to guide you in facing what's coming.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 02-11-2020 7:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 48 of 246 (871766)
02-12-2020 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:30 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
quote:
The point to my post is that if the indicators I've given are valid, the final days must be very close.

I think we can say that the “indicators” that apply specifically to Francis are both very weak and lacking Biblical foundation. Indeed they have more to do with Roman paganism than Christianity.

Even the arguments against the Papacy in general are weak.

quote:
ms ominous. Even the lightning hitting St. Peter's when the previous Pope resigned. And that's just specific to Francis. The papacy itself is easily identified with the Latin Vicarivs Filii Dei whose Roman numerals add up to 666. This is the only derivation of that number I've seen that is at all convincing, coming as it does within the phrase itself that actually defines the Antichrist, that it is in the language of Rome too, the seat of the Antichrist so designated.

It shouldn’t be convincing. The Number is supposed to refer to a name, not a title and picking out Roman numerals and adding them up is a highly questionable procedure - it ignores most of the letters and the usual way of writing numbers with Roman numerals for a start. Your conviction seems to have very little to do with the argument.

As I said in my previous post, End a Times prophecy is a mess. The various prophecies do not agree, and Jeffress’s reading is strained at best.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:30 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
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Posts: 7343
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 49 of 246 (871767)
02-12-2020 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:30 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
Here we go again, you're seeing signs of end times. Gagging for it.

And yet again it won't happen, and yet again, like all the other failed prophets, your faith in the end time will be increased by the failure and you'll blather on talking nonsense.

Get a life faith, just get a real life. Do something useful with it and try to stop only thinking about yourself and destroying everything for everyone else. It's a really toxic form of narcism.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7043
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 50 of 246 (871771)
02-12-2020 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:30 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
Please take your preaching elsewhere.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 51 of 246 (871773)
02-12-2020 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:30 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
And the point is that the indicators have never been valid and have been shown to be utter nonsense for at least two thousand years.

It's just a YAWN and a laugh.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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dwise1
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Posts: 3975
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 52 of 246 (871774)
02-12-2020 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
02-11-2020 7:06 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
ANYWAY, add up the Roman numerals of that title, ...

Why Roman numerals and not Greek numerals? After all, the New Testament was written in Greek, not in Latin.

600 = Χ
60 = Ξ
6 = Digamma (archaic letter, looked like a capital F, sounded like a w)
666 = 600+60+6 = χξF

So shouldn't you be trying to decipher "χξF" instead of wasting your time on Roman numerals?

Edited by dwise1, : more description of a digamma, changed representation from "w" to"F"
Changed Greek letters from uncial (uppercase) to miniscule (lowercase)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 02-11-2020 7:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5436
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 53 of 246 (871777)
02-12-2020 9:42 AM


Robert Jeffress. Yeah.

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 54 of 246 (871780)
02-12-2020 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:30 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
So let’s take a more serious look.

Let us start with the only clear reference to the Rapture - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That seems pretty clear that the Rapture follows the Second Coming - which comes after the Tribulation Mark 13:24-27

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Revelation is a bit of a problem here since 1 Thessalonians has all the dead Christians resurrected in the Rapture while the Revelation has no general resurrection of Christians until after the Millennium.

Revelation 20 4:6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So we have explicit statements here. Jefress offers none that support his claims - only questionable interpretations. Surely this is the opposite of what Biblical inerrantists are supposed to believe. should they not say that Jefress’ interpretations are wrong because they contradict what the Bible clearly says ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:00 AM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34709
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 55 of 246 (871787)
02-12-2020 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by dwise1
02-12-2020 9:14 AM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
ANYWAY, add up the Roman numerals of that title, …

Why Roman numerals and not Greek numerals? After all, the New Testament was written in Greek, not in Latin. [/qs]

It's a phrase that describes the Pope, so Latin with Roman numerals are very appropriate. It's the Pope who is Vicarivs Filii Dei or "in the place of the Son of God," a phrase which in itself alone describes the Antichrist, a usurper of the role of Christ. The Pope is called "the head of the Church" by the RCC, but the Bible in two places says Jesus Christ is the "head of the Church." Another way the Pope is a usurper, and that makes him Antichrist.

So then it's just confirmation that the Roman numerals in the Latin phrase happen to add up to 666.

Rome usurped the gospel itself and created a false Church that the world accepted as Christianity for a millennium, headed by this Antichrist Pope. When the Byzantine Emperor Phocas in 606 AD declared the Pope "Universal Bishop" he enacted the elevation of this bishop in a way that Pope Gregory had said would be the creation of the Antichrist. I forget the exact order of events here but I know that is what Pope Gregorty said about the idea of putting the Bishop of Rome above all the other bishops in Christendom. (Luther wrote about all this I think, and I probably found it in "The History of Romanism" a tome authored by John? Dowling). It was a usurpation of the Church itself, it created the RCC which dominated for a thousand years until the Reformation came along and took away the power it had wielded all that time over all the nations it presided over. It's the ROMAN Church, it is not the original Church that was born in Jerusalem and enshrined in the Greek Testament. Its whole structure is pagan. In the New Testament all believers are called "priests," and Jesus Christ is the only priest over us, but the RCC created a pagan style priesthood. It brought over all the trappings of the pagan religions of Rome, including the robes and ornaments that show great wealth, and the weird head gear. Scripture tells us that men are not to cover their heads in the assembly, but these "bishops" all wear some kind of head gear, and the Pope wears that little cap like the Jewish yarmulke. And of course there are many more pagan elements I'm not mentioning here. Dowling's History of Romanism lists them all.

Latin is the language of Rome. The Pope is the head of the Church of ROME, not the Church of the New Testament. Roman numerals are embedded in Latin as it were, and the phrase that calls the Pope the usurper of the role of the Son of God adds up to 666.

Nothing to do with Greek anything. So the rest of your post is irrelevant. But I hope you too will be saved even if it means having to go through the Tribulation. So much easier to give yourself to Christ now and be in the Rapture and avoid all that. But some people have to do it the hard way.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 56 of 246 (871788)
02-12-2020 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:38 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
So you’re asserting that the AntiChrist claims to serve Jesus ? Where do you get that from ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:55 PM PaulK has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 57 of 246 (871789)
02-12-2020 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:38 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
Faith writes:

So much easier to give yourself to Christ now and be in the Rapture and avoid all that.

quote:
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Doesn't sound like Jesus was recommending the easy way.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34709
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 58 of 246 (871790)
02-12-2020 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
02-12-2020 2:46 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
So you’re asserting that the AntiChrist claims to serve Jesus ? Where do you get that from ?

Though the Pope claims to serve Jesus now (although in fact the last few Popes have honored "Mary" above Christ), during the Tribulation when he gets power over the nations again the mask will come off and he will put himself unreservedly in the place of God and demand worship as God.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 02-12-2020 2:46 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 02-12-2020 3:11 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 59 of 246 (871791)
02-12-2020 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:55 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
Though the Pope claims to serve Jesus now...

It’s not just what the Pope says it’s what the title means - and you call it the title of the AntiChrist - but AntiChrist means against Christ.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 3:19 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34709
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 60 of 246 (871792)
02-12-2020 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:30 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
I was pondering all this last night and one thing that came to mind was something I'd read here fairly recently: Buzsaw's thread in which his OP describes two instances of a witch and someone else who were actually dead but seemed alive because they were completely possessed by a demon (see Message 1). The demon gave them a semblance of life. As I said on that thread I'd never heard of that before, I'm certainly aware of living people being inhabited or possessed by demons, and the New Testament is full of such examples, but not a dead person being completely animated by them. I suppose it would account for the existence of "zombies" if they are real. The lore about zombies can't be true though: why would they want to kill people and eat them? The people Buzsaw described had not eaten or drunk anything for many years, that was a main characteristics. Demons have no need for food or drink.

ANYWAY, here it comes: I suddenly had the thought that the final Antichrist would be entirely possessed by Satan himself, not just any old rank and file demon but Satan himself, and his host could in fact be dead. Pope Francis? Well, he's pretty old already. If he's to be Anticrhist while he's alive it has to come soon. Well, even if he's dead I suppose.

It's just a thought. You can now run around screaming and tearing your hair out and calling me names.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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