Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 73 (8962 total)
82 online now:
DrJones*, dwise1, Phat (AdminPhat) (3 members, 79 visitors)
Newest Member: Samuel567
Post Volume: Total: 871,047 Year: 2,795/23,288 Month: 986/1,809 Week: 105/313 Day: 22/39 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 91 of 246 (871828)
02-13-2020 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
02-13-2020 10:12 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
quote:
The whole reason I wrote my previous post was to say that I don't feel able to sort all these things out, so I do my best to get a feel for the different scenarios and then trust the teachers who argue for the one that makes the most sense to me, and that's the Pre Trib Rapture. But as I said some of the scriptures remain difficult to incorporate, or for me to do that in any case.

That’s sort of sad. And not very Protestant. The Bible might as well have stayed in Latin as far as you’re concerned.

quote:
This can be interpreted as some do as the Church's rising to meet the Lord in the air in order to escort Him to earth, the way the people would run out to meet a King returning from a journey and escort him into the city. That is the post Trib Rapture theory.

Or it can be interpreted as Jesus gathering his people as in Mark 13:27. Really why wouldn’t you read it in the light of the Gospels?

quote:
OR it can be interpreted as referring to our meeting Him in the air to be taken to heaven to be with Him for seven years before He returns to Earth with all of us following Him, which is the Pre Trib interpretation.

But why assume an additional event where Jesus sort of comes back but nobody left on Earth can see it? This interpretation seems to be motivated solely by a need to deny the obvious reading - presumably because that reading puts the Rapture after the Tribulation.

quote:
I've given my reasons for preferring this view.

Because you like Robert Jefress even though his arguments are very, very weak.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 10:12 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:31 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 92 of 246 (871829)
02-13-2020 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
02-13-2020 10:23 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
But they were spared the “trial” without being Raptured. And no, reinterpreting prophecies meant for other people as being meant for you is not a valid reading.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 10:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:03 AM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34709
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 93 of 246 (871832)
02-13-2020 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by PaulK
02-12-2020 1:25 PM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
[referring to 1Thess 4 quoted in the previous post] That seems pretty clear that the Rapture follows the Second Coming - which comes after the Tribulation Mark 13:24-27

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As I say in the previous post you can interpret the Thessalonians passage to refer to the final return of Christ, but the Pre Trib people interpret it to refer to the Rapture of the Church seven years before the final return of Christ.

Mark 13 does refer to the final return of Christ in any case, which does follow the Tribulation. In the Pre Trib scenario the saints being gathered would be those who died during the Tribulation, the Church being with Christ during that period.

The Revelation is a bit of a problem here since 1 Thessalonians has all the dead Christians resurrected in the Rapture while the Revelation has no general resurrection of Christians until after the Millennium.

Revelation 20 4:6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years wer finished." These are not believers. These are the unbelievers who don't awaken until after the millennium to face the final Judgment and be cast into the Lake of Fire. That is are the second death. The believers are those who are judged before the Millennium and reign with Christ through the millennium.

So we have explicit statements here. Jefress offers none that support his claims - only questionable interpretations. Surely this is the opposite of what Biblical inerrantists are supposed to believe. should they not say that Jefress’ interpretations are wrong because they contradict what the Bible clearly says ?

But you are the one who made the mistake of calling them "Christians" who are resurrected AFTER the millennium, but they are the unbeleivers, not Christians. jeffress doesn't address the judgments or the final resurrection in any case, he's only addressing the timing of the Rapture and the Tribulation.

There are apparently two separate sets of believers, and that has bothered me a great deal, but that's what the Pre Trib scenario implies. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and we inhabit a gap in the timing of events that starts at the end of the Book of Daniel and ends at the Rapture, when Daniel's timing picks up again. Christians are believers in Christ who come to faith during the two millennia since Christ. Daniel's timing of the Seventy Weeks does not include us. It stops with the crucifixion of Christ after 69 Weeks and resumes the Seventieth Week at the beginning of the Tribulation, which is encompassed in that Seventieth Week. The Tribulation, or the Seventieth Week of Daniel, begins with the Rapture, which is the point at which the Church is removed from Earth. Then Daniel's timing resumes with the Seventieth Week and that's where we get the resumption of the Old Testament imagery as the judgments of God unfold as described in the Book of Revelation. The timing is really very convincing I think but it took me quite a while to accept it as at first it doesn't make sense, and what especially didn't make sense to me is the idea of two separate bodies of believers. But it's because of the timing factor, how it all so neatly fits into the Seventy Weeks of Daniel as it was abruptly ended after the 69 weeks, with a future week yet to come, that I now accept it. The Church is the Bride of Christ, but those saved in the Tribulation are what Paul refers to as "all Israel" but also a great multitude of Gentiles with them as well. They are the muoltitude depicted in Revelation 7. The Church is already in heaven with Christ, this is another group of believers.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by PaulK, posted 02-12-2020 1:25 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2020 11:56 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34709
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 94 of 246 (871833)
02-13-2020 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by PaulK
02-13-2020 10:37 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
But they were spared the “trial” without being Raptured. And no, reinterpreting prophecies meant for other people as being meant for you is not a valid reading.

Remember, at the Rapture, "the dead in Christ rise first," and that includes members of the Church at Philadelphia.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2020 10:37 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 02-13-2020 11:18 AM Faith has responded
 Message 105 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2020 12:13 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 95 of 246 (871835)
02-13-2020 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
02-13-2020 11:03 AM


no rapture until Zombification
Faith writes:

Remember, at the Rapture, "the dead in Christ rise first," and that includes members of the Church at Philadelphia.

So it really is that simple.

As long as the dead members of the Church at Philadelphia have not become Zombies it ain't happening.

The whole idea of rapture and tribulation and Second Coming and End Times is so ripe for the comedy clubs.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-titles


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:42 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34709
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 96 of 246 (871836)
02-13-2020 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by PaulK
02-13-2020 10:35 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
quote:
The whole reason I wrote my previous post was to say that I don't feel able to sort all these things out, so I do my best to get a feel for the different scenarios and then trust the teachers who argue for the one that makes the most sense to me, and that's the Pre Trib Rapture. But as I said some of the scriptures remain difficult to incorporate, or for me to do that in any case.

That’s sort of sad. And not very Protestant. The Bible might as well have stayed in Latin as far as you’re concerned.

Why? Relying on the teachers God gave us is the right thing to do since we aren't all gifted at Biblical interpretation. I did my best to sort through the arguments well enough to settle on the one most persuasive to me, and there's nothing wrong with that. If something clearer comes along I hope I will be alert to it.

quote:
This can be interpreted as some do as the Church's rising to meet the Lord in the air in order to escort Him to earth, the way the people would run out to meet a King returning from a journey and escort him into the city. That is the post Trib Rapture theory.

Or it can be interpreted as Jesus gathering his people as in Mark 13:27. Really why wouldn’t you read it in the light of the Gospels?

Sorry, you lost me completely. I thought the point was to show where the Rapture of the Church fits in, the rising to meet Christ in the air.

quote:
OR it can be interpreted as referring to our meeting Him in the air to be taken to heaven to be with Him for seven years before He returns to Earth with all of us following Him, which is the Pre Trib interpretation.

But why assume an additional event where Jesus sort of comes back but nobody left on Earth can see it?

Because other parts of scripture require it.

This interpretation seems to be motivated solely by a need to deny the obvious reading - presumably because that reading puts the Rapture after the Tribulation.

The only motivation I'm aware of is the effort to put it all together as a whole that hangs together, not to "deny" anything unless it doesn't hang together with the main scriptural indications.

quote:
I've given my reasons for preferring this view.

Because you like Robert Jefress even though his arguments are very, very weak.

I never even heard of Robert Jeffress before this radio presentation, but I thought his presentation was a lot more coherent than many I've heard on this subject, and I especially appreciate his list of four reasons why he supports the Pre Trib scenario, which he gives at the very end of the podcast. So in my experience his argument is very strong, not at all weak.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2020 10:35 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2020 12:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7343
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 97 of 246 (871837)
02-13-2020 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
02-13-2020 10:23 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
Faith writes:

So each generation reads those passages as pertaining to themselves.

Which is exactly what you and everyone else has done for 2,000 years. And all of you are wrong and always will be wrong. But somehow it doesn't matter that everyone that has ever claimed to know has been proven not to know. Go figure.

Eventually there will be a generation in which it is fulfilled during our lives.

Nope. It's never happened and it never will. You'll lose every bet you make on this and I'll take any bet you like.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 10:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:58 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34709
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 98 of 246 (871838)
02-13-2020 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
02-13-2020 11:18 AM


Re: no rapture until Zombification
As long as the dead members of the Church at Philadelphia have not become Zombies it ain't happening.

So you don't believe in the resurrection at all. Interesting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 02-13-2020 11:18 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 02-13-2020 11:48 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 99 of 246 (871839)
02-13-2020 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
02-13-2020 11:42 AM


Re: no rapture until Zombification
Faith writes:

So you don't believe in the resurrection at all. Interesting.

I don't believe in the resurrection as marketed by the CCoI; their product is simply all con and no beef. The stories included in the different Canons are all stories written by humans for humans living at the time the stories were written. Revelations is a great example, a typical Apocalypse fantasy of the period and relevant only in relation to a hoped for fantasy involving Rome. Like Jesus End Times tale it is just another example of failed prophecy.

We die, I believe that each of us is then "resurrected" but not here, not truly alive as we know living and that each of us will individually get judged.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:42 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 100 of 246 (871840)
02-13-2020 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
02-13-2020 11:00 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
quote:
As I say in the previous post you can interpret the Thessalonians passage to refer to the final return of Christ, but the Pre Trib people interpret it to refer to the Rapture of the Church seven years before the final return of Christ.

But why would you do so, other than to make it fit the pre-trib rapture?

quote:
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years wer finished." These are not believers

In other words only “them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,” can be “believers”. Really ?

quote:
But you are the one who made the mistake of calling them "Christians" who are resurrected AFTER the millennium, but they are the unbeleivers, not Christians. jeffress doesn't address the resurrection in any case, he's only addressing the timing of the Rapture and the Tribulation.

I don’t think it’s a mistake to say that there have been believers who died of natural causes or accident. Why do you disagree?

And since the resurrection is a part of the Rapture Jefress’ failure to address it is a weakness in his argument,

Your interpretation of Daniel I need not address except to point out that the End Times of Daniel occur while the Diadochi Kingdoms are the do,I ant power in the Middle East - and that the whole notion of a gap has no justification in the text of Daniel at all. Indeed the idea that there is a completely unmentioned pause longer than the entire timeline is more than a little ridiculous.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 12:08 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 02-13-2020 3:33 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 7:50 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34709
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 101 of 246 (871841)
02-13-2020 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Tangle
02-13-2020 11:41 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
Well, oh Tangled One, all I can say is that maybe if you slowed down and stopped jumping to conclusions and tried to think through how it all hangs together quite nicely as I believe I have shown, it might start to make some sense to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2020 11:41 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2020 1:10 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 102 of 246 (871842)
02-13-2020 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
02-13-2020 11:31 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
quote:
Why? Relying on the teachers God gave us is the right thing to do since we aren't all gifted at Biblical interpretation. I did my best to sort through the arguments well enough to settle on the one most persuasive to me, and there's nothing wrong with that. If something clearer comes along I hope I will be alert to it.

Because worshipping false teachers is a great idea ? Jefress’ arguments don’t show any special skill. Or even understanding. They convince you but that’s clearly not for any sensible reason.

quote:
Sorry, you lost me completely. I thought the point was to show where the Rapture of the Church fits in, the rising to meet Christ in the air.

The point is to interpret Scripture in the light of Scripture. If Mark (and Matthew) say something very similar to Paul why should they not be talking about the same thing ?

quote:
Because other parts of scripture require it.

It’s funny then that you would use questionable interpretations instead of those then. The claim that you have good arguments that you aren’t using is not exactly plausible.

quote:
.
The only motivation I'm aware of is the effort to put it all together as a whole that hangs together, not to "deny" anything unless it doesn't hang together with the main scriptural indications.

Which suggests that Jefress is incompetent since his interpretation makes things worse, not better.

quote:
I never even heard of Robert Jeffress before this radio presentation, but I thought his presentation was a lot more coherent than many I've heard on this subject, and I especially appreciate his list of four reasons why he supports the Pre Trib scenario, which he gives at the very end of the podcast. So in my experience his argument is very strong, not at all weak

It is a fact that Jefress’ arguments are all questionable inferences and therefore weak. That they convince you speaks more of your desire to believe the pre-trib rapture.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:31 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34709
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 103 of 246 (871843)
02-13-2020 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by PaulK
02-13-2020 11:56 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
But why would you do so, other than to make it fit the pre-trib rapture?

Well, of course, if the preponderance of scripture is adding up to that interpretation, then other verses that are more ambiguous are then interpreted to support it. Of course. What else would one do? If you don't do that you will never have a whole picture at all.

"quote:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years wer finished." These are not believers

In other words only “them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,” can be “believers”. Really ?

Since you don't quote enough to remind me of the context I don't know what you are referring to, but "the rest of the dead" that rise after the Millennium are unbelievers.

I see you are keeping up this line to the end without giving any further references to help me out so I have nothing to add.

And yes I remember your interpretation of Daniel and it's ridiculous.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2020 11:56 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 02-13-2020 12:13 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 106 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2020 12:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 104 of 246 (871844)
02-13-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
02-13-2020 12:08 PM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
Faith writes:

... if the preponderance of scripture is adding up to that interpretation, then other verses that are more ambiguous are then interpreted to support it.


That would be called confirmation bias.

Faith writes:

What else would one do?


Read it honestly.

Faith writes:

If you don't do that you will never have a whole picture at all.


But you can't start with the assumption that there is a "whole picture".

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 12:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15932
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 105 of 246 (871845)
02-13-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
02-13-2020 11:03 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
quote:
Remember, at the Rapture, "the dead in Christ rise first," and that includes members of the Church at Philadelphia.

Which is no objection since if there is no pre-trib Rapture they stay dead and safe from the Tribulation. Or are you really going to invent another resurrection just to protect Jefress’ argument ?

And I should repeat that - according to the Revelation - only those who were martyred rise before the Millennium. But that exclusion is not present in 1 Thessalonians 4.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 8:09 PM PaulK has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020