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Member (Idle past 4447 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Straggler writes:
I think "the cross" has cultural significance in most Western societies that goes beyond religion. It symbolizes making sacrifices for our fellow man (e.g. the Red Cross, which is not overtly religious).
You argued that a giant crucifix had "secular purpose" but were patently unable to express what that "secular purpose" was.
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Why they were chosen is irrelevant to the cultual significance that they actually have today.
The various red symbols were chosen and put on large white backgrounds because they would be recognized as something not to shoot at because of their religious or other connotations.
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
You included what you interpret the current meanings to be. Others do not necessarily interpret a cross as a religious symbol. That's why I included the current meanings in my post. For one thing, it is non-denominational. It is associated with a culture that happens to have a lot of Christian roots. It is not necessarily associated with particular religious beliefs.
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
hooah writes:
I was talking specifically about a culture with Christian roots as opposed to religious practices. What part of that did you miss?
Unless you are using "cultural christians" as your copout. hooah writes:
I beilieve in much of what the fictional character Jesus stood for but I don't consider myself a Christian. I also believe in much of what the fictional character Frodo stood for but I don't call it religious.
If that is the case, those people are still christians because they more often than not believe in jesus in some fashion. hooah writes:
I have a crucifix that I made myself. My fundy friends and relatives are either puzzled or horrified.
I, for one, have never seen a non-christian displaying a cross in their house. hooah writes:
Or, you assume that every stranger you see wearing a cross is a Christian. I, for one, have never seen any non-christian rocking a cross necklace. I, for one, have a Jesus fish bracelet and a WWJD necklace. Do they count?
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Hooah writes:
The cross has religious meaning for some and other meanings for others.
Am I wrong in taking this to mean that you are saying it is pure coincidence that the cross has meaning? "Happens to have Christian roots"? Would Americans or anything region that "happens to have a lot of christian roots" wear crosses if not for the christian roots? Hooah writes:
Nonsense. The US is culturally Christian and yet we see you guys arguing all the time that it isn't a "Christian nation".
"Culturally christian" is still christian. hooah writes:
Sure it does.
Being an atheist that grew up in christian culture doesn't automatically make one a "cultural christian"... hooah writes:
Well, they do. Most atheists celebrate Christmas and Easter, don't they? But they do it in a cultural way instead of a religious way.
... unless they do christian things... hooah writes:
Sure it is. That's what I tell Christians all the time. What matters is the message, not the messenger. Unfortunately, some religious people have it reversed, like you do.
Belief in words written by what you admit to be a fictional character is not anywhere remotely close to believing IN that fictional character. hooah writes:
As I mentioned to NoNukes, and he agreed, the origin of the symbol is irrelevant. Things change.
tell me: would anyone wear a cross had it not been for this jesus character or christianity? hooah writes:
Certainly not. I wear them because I believe in the message, not the messenger.
ringo writes:
And I am sure you don't wear them to be ironic whatsoever, right? I, for one, have a Jesus fish bracelet and a WWJD necklace. Do they count?
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ringo writes:
I think "the cross" has cultural significance in most Western societies that goes beyond religion. It symbolizes making sacrifices for our fellow man (e.g. the Red Cross, which is not overtly religious). Message 392ramoss writes:
When you think of the Red Cross, do you honestly think of religion? Or do you think of helping people?
Not to me.
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
It's not a dichotomy at all. It's just the two most obvious examples that came to mind. If you want more possibilities:
That's a false dichotomy.When you think of the Red Cross,
- do you think of Switzerland? - do you think of electric chairs? - do you think of ice cream? NoNukes writes:
I don't know what you think "the cross in question" is. I'm talking about crosses in general in Western culture.
Beyond that, the cross in question is not red.
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
I have a collection of about seventy nativity scenes.
I don't know what atheists do on Christmas. Maybe they do still treat their kids to Santa Claus, but I suspect that they are not putting Nativity Scenes in their yards just to be cultural. NoNukes writes:
In my experience, everybody celebrates Easter pretty much the same way. Some people go to church on Easter who don't attend on a regular basis. Otherwise, Easter is pretty much a secular holiday, like Valentine's Day but with different candy.
But in the US, do atheist do anything special on Easter other than take Good Friday off from work when it is offered?
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Some cross that atheists wanted to remove but the powers-that-be agree with me that it has cultural significance in addition to any religious significance that it might have.
What cross is mentioned in the title of your message? NoNukes writes:
Congratulations on being able to see beyond the literal for once.
In fact, you are parodying yourself. NoNukes writes:
The Red Cross is one example of a cross whose implications go beyond the religious. The cross in the OP, according to the powers-that-be, is apparently another example.
When I see 'the' Red Cross, I think of the particular organization that uses 'the' Red Cross. If I were to see a red cross that was completely distinct from that one, I would not think about helping people.
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
hooah writes:
I'm agreeing with the organizers of the 9/11 memorial, who consider the cross a symbol of hope for everybody.
So your argument boils down to "nuh uh, you're wrong because I say so"? hooah writes:
Yes, that's my point.
Christmas = Winter Solstice Easter = eggs and candy. No Christianity there whatsoever. hooah writes:
Yes.
So in ringo world, Christianity now means "belief in what jesus says" instead of the way it has been for eons of "belief that jesus existed and died for your sins"? hooah writes:
No. So you, Ringo, are a christian? If you had been reading my posts faithfully, you'd know these things.
hooah writes:
On the contrary, belief in what somebody says is far more important than the trivial question of whether that somebody actually existed. What matters more, the dream that Martin Luther King Jr. had or the guy who mentioned he had it?
you do realize that belief in what someone says is not the same as belief in that someone, right? hooah writes:
See the OP: the organizers of the 9/11 memorial.
If you can point me to ANYONE other than yourself (because I don't even believe you) that uses the cross in a non-christian manner, I will cede my point. hooah writes:
Only me and the courts, eh? Then I think I'm in fairly good company.
The only people silly enough to say otherwise is you and this court ruling. hooah writes:
Maybe the courts are reading my posts like you should be, but I doubt that they made their ruling solely on my say-so.
And neither of you have provided ANY evidence other than Ringo's say so. hoah writes:
Jesus' message was, "Love God and love thy neighbor as thyself." Most religions say pretty much the same thing. I wear a symbol that represents that message.
So jesus' message is "ask me what I would do in this situation" and you wear a symbol that represents a religion and not at all what the character said?
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
That pretty much is my reasoning.
In short it is not that the cross is no longer a religious symbol, but that this particular cross has additional significance which can be displayed without violating the constitution.
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You're skipping a step in your logic. The cross was chosen as a meeting point because of its spiritual significance and because it was easily recognizeable. It was chosen for the museum because it was chosen by the rescuers. If they had chosen a beam bent into the shape of a duck, that would be in the museum instead.
Truth is it was picked for its religious significance and it has a religious significance now - a very obvious one.
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
hooah writes:
If and when another court overturns the ruling, we can discuss their reasoning.
No appeals? One court decision is all it takes to end discussion about a topic?
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
The bullshit is yours. The museum chose a symbol of hope. The people who had the hope happened to be Christians. Only a handful of atheists seem to see that as a constitutional problem.
The museum chose an undeniable religious symbol. The rest is pure bullshit.
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ringo Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
I'd be willing to bet that a large number would associate it with something other than religion.
There'll be a few million people view that symbol in the next year, would you bet me anything at all that if you interviewed them and asked them what does the symbol represent that more would say hope than religion or Christianity or some such? Tangle writes:
If they were paying attention to why it was included in the memorial, they'd say it was hope that more victims would be rescued. Salvation from the wreckage, yes. "Eternal salvation" not necessarily.
And for those three people who say 'hope' how many do you think would answer the follow up question 'why?' With something about salvation? Tangle writes:
It's funny how you self-styled experts on religious symbols don't know the difference between a cross and a crucifix. ... I just wouldn't pretend that it's not a crucifix and holds no religious significance. The fundies that I know make a huge distinction. A crucifix would have no more religious significance to them than a portrait of Satan. In the broad sense, a cross may be a religious symbol but it means different things to different denominations.
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