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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 436 of 479 (735016)
08-04-2014 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by NoNukes
08-04-2014 1:14 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
and in particular atheists that are particularly put off by public displays of Christianity like hooah200212.

My objection is the government sanctioning of Christian displays, not necessarily public displays of Christianity. That is what this thread is about.


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2014 1:14 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 437 of 479 (735017)
08-04-2014 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by hooah212002
08-02-2014 11:49 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
This part of the panel statement seems to me to indicate that the cross in this instance is some how not religious, but secular.

No, the cross is religious, nobody denies that. But the purpose for displaying it is a secular one: to recount the history of what went down during that time.

The cross impacted many people that were directly involved in the rescue and recovery efforts. It deserves to be recognized at this memorial.

Why is that? So they can skirt the constitution and have a government sanctioned religious symbol.

But nobody has provided any evidence for that at all. And in fact, we can read from the people behind the memorial:

quote:
The Memorial Mission:

  • Remember and honor the thousands of innocent men, women, and children murdered by terrorists in the horrific attacks of February 26, 1993 and September 11, 2001.
  • Respect this place made sacred through tragic loss.
  • Recognize the endurance of those who survived, the courage of those who risked their lives to save others, and the compassion of all who supported us in our darkest hours.
  • May the lives remembered, the deeds recognized, and the spirit reawakened be eternal beacons, which reaffirm respect for life, strengthen our resolve to preserve freedom, and inspire an end to hatred, ignorance and intolerance.

And from Mayor Bloomberg, the Chairman of the Board:

quote:
The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, brought loss and grief on a scale we had never known. But in the dark days that followed, the indomitable spirit of our city and nation shined more brightly than ever, as stories of heroism and sacrifice inspired us all. And together, we made a solemn vow: that we would never forget those we lost and that we would forever share their stories with the world.

That is why we built the National September 11 Memorial & Museum.

The Memorial & Museum provide a place of reflection and remembrance. They are designed to help those who were most affected by the attacks to heal and those with no memory of the attacks to understand losses that will forever be incomprehensible.

...

The 9/11 Memorial & Museum stands as a powerful tribute to the victims of the attacks and to the power of the human spirit. Its importance will grow with each passing year.


As you can see, having the cross at the memorial has nothing to do with skirting the constitution and having a government sanction religious symbol. Its all about remembering the events that surrounded the tragedy, and the cross was an important artifact involved in those events.

Then there is the court ruling:

quote:
the record compels the conclusion that the actual purpose of displaying the cross in the September 11 Museum is a genuine secular interest

I wholeheartedly disagree that anything about a cross is secular.

Read the whole part:

quote:
[Given] the absence of any evidence of ulterior religious motives, and the undisputed historical significance of The Cross at Ground Zero, we conclude that, as a matter of law, the record compels the conclusion that the actual purpose of displaying the cross in the September 11 Museum is a genuine secular interest in recounting the history of extraordinary events,

The cross has a genuine secular interest in being displayed to recount the history of events around 9/11. That's undisputed historical significance in the absence of any ulterior religious motives. Case closed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by hooah212002, posted 08-02-2014 11:49 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 446 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 7:03 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6921
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 438 of 479 (735018)
08-04-2014 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by New Cat's Eye
08-04-2014 3:43 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
CS writes:

The cross has a genuine secular interest in being displayed to recount the history of events around 9/11. That's undisputed historical significance in the absence of any ulterior religious motives. Case closed.

This is circular - the only interest in that particular piece of metal is because of its religious significance. If they'd actually wanted something secular, they'd have chosen a different shape - they had an infinite number to choose from.

Truth is, they couldn't do anything else could they?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 3:43 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 4:28 PM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 439 of 479 (735019)
08-04-2014 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Tangle
08-04-2014 4:08 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
the only interest in that particular piece of metal is because of its religious significance.

I have no reason to believe that whatsoever.

I mean, who should I listen to? The people who are putting the museum together, or some random anonymous atheist on the internet?

I think I'll side with the people who are in charge of the museum. They've explained why they've included the cross and the courts have ruled that it doesn't violate the constitution because they do have a genuine secular interest in including it.

The case is closed. You lost. Get over it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 4:08 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 4:33 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 441 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 4:33 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6921
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 440 of 479 (735020)
08-04-2014 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by New Cat's Eye
08-04-2014 4:28 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
CS writes:

The case is closed. You lost. Get over it.

I've nothing to get over, it ain't my country and I personally think it's pretty cool. I'd have voted to keep it if asked.

It doesn't get us passed the very, very obvious fact that it was chosen because of its religious significance.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 4:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 5:29 PM Tangle has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 441 of 479 (735021)
08-04-2014 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by New Cat's Eye
08-04-2014 4:28 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
The case is closed. You lost. Get over it.

that's it, shut the thread down. close up shop. No more discussion here folks.


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 4:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 4:41 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 442 of 479 (735022)
08-04-2014 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by hooah212002
08-04-2014 4:33 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
that's it, shut the thread down. close up shop. No more discussion here folks.

Especially when people start avoiding the evidence for why they're wrong and instead go for the low lying fruit that is irrelevant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 4:33 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 6:56 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 443 of 479 (735023)
08-04-2014 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Tangle
08-04-2014 4:33 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
It doesn't get us passed the very, very obvious fact that it was chosen because of its religious significance.

That's why it was chosen by the rescuers for a meeting spot, etc., but that's not why the officials want it in the museum:

quote:
Museum officials said the cross was being displayed not because of its religious value but the role it played in the aftermath of the attacks.

"The mission of the National September 11 Memorial Museum is to tell the history of 9/11 through historic artefacts like the World Trade Center cross. This steel remnant became a symbol of spiritual comfort for the thousands of recovery workers who toiled at ground zero, as well as for people around the world," museum president Joe Daniels said in a statement.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 4:33 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 5:38 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6921
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 444 of 479 (735024)
08-04-2014 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by New Cat's Eye
08-04-2014 5:29 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
CS writes:

That's why it was chosen by the rescuers for a meeting spot, etc., but that's not why the officials want it in the museum

Well of course, that's what they have to say because of your inconvenient constitution - it's making everyone torture words and feelings. Truth is it was picked for its religious significance and it has a religious significance now - a very obvious one. It looks like a duck....not much point calling it anything else but a duck except to avoid a legalistic difficulty.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 5:29 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 12:09 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 461 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 10:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 445 of 479 (735027)
08-04-2014 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by New Cat's Eye
08-04-2014 4:41 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Or, god forbid, there are multiple lines of discussion going on (and by god, I do mean in a purely secular sense) but you want the discussion to be focused the way you want it to be because you are combative.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 4:41 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
Message 446 of 479 (735028)
08-04-2014 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by New Cat's Eye
08-04-2014 3:43 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
But the purpose for displaying it is a secular one: to recount the history of what went down during that time.

"People prayed to, and found SPIRITUAL sanctity in, this hunk of metal in the shape normally recognizable as a Christian one" sure seems like a secular thing to me. Like I said: I regularly pray to secular thing.

Yes, the fact that it is now used as the lone rememberance of 9/11 is in itself secular. But it doesn't "just so happen" to be a cross. It is there and was used because it is a cross and it being a cross, it was used for spiritual and religious reasons. Reasons that only resonate with people that identify with a cross as having meaning. And guess who those people are? Christians. Find me non-Christians that identify with this cross and hold it as significant. Not people that have reason to be bias.

But nobody has provided any evidence for that at all. And in fact, we can read from the people behind the memorial:

They have known of the controversy from the very beginning, so any language they have used has been twisted to make it sound like their purpose is secular.

And from Mayor Bloomberg, the Chairman of the Board:

The only mayor that would admit to it being religious is someone like Rick Perry or some Texan. Bloomberg isn't a moron and he knew, just like everyone else, that there would be controversy so he made damn sure to make any statements he made reflect that.

As you can see

No, that's what you see. I see mangled language.

Case closed.

Is it really? No appeals? One court decision is all it takes to end discussion about a topic?

Oh, when it suits you it does.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 3:43 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by Coragyps, posted 08-04-2014 8:36 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 449 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 12:16 PM hooah212002 has not yet responded
 Message 462 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 10:25 AM hooah212002 has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5393
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 447 of 479 (735029)
08-04-2014 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by hooah212002
08-04-2014 7:03 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Are you trying to imply that Rick Perry is a moron??!! Why, I ought to come over there and...uh...agree with you!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 7:03 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 448 of 479 (735073)
08-05-2014 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Tangle
08-04-2014 5:38 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Tangle writes:

Truth is it was picked for its religious significance and it has a religious significance now - a very obvious one.


You're skipping a step in your logic. The cross was chosen as a meeting point because of its spiritual significance and because it was easily recognizeable. It was chosen for the museum because it was chosen by the rescuers. If they had chosen a beam bent into the shape of a duck, that would be in the museum instead.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 5:38 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 12:56 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 449 of 479 (735078)
08-05-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by hooah212002
08-04-2014 7:03 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
hooah writes:

No appeals? One court decision is all it takes to end discussion about a topic?


If and when another court overturns the ruling, we can discuss their reasoning.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 7:03 PM hooah212002 has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6921
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 450 of 479 (735087)
08-05-2014 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by ringo
08-05-2014 12:09 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
'yeh, right.' as the kids say.......or, as my dad used to say, 'pull the other one it's got bells on.'

The museum chose an undeniable religious symbol. The rest is pure bullshit.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 12:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:06 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 453 by Jon, posted 08-05-2014 4:48 PM Tangle has responded

  
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