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Author Topic:   Kent Hovind
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 350 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 286 of 349 (628330)
08-08-2011 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by frako
08-08-2011 9:31 AM


Re: Logic demands
Why did the big bang go bang?

Scientist: we dont know
Creationist: creator

What was there before the big bang?

Scientist: we dont know
Creationist creator

Whyt started life?
Scientist: we have a few working hypothesis
Creationist: creator

How did life came to be as it is now
Scientist: Evolution
Creationist: creator

Why does gravitiy wor as it does?
Scientist: we are working on it we have some working hypothesis
Creationist: creator

Instead of all of this, just look at the logical possibilites, because if you reject the scriptures, that is all you have. Wouldnt you agree


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by frako, posted 08-08-2011 9:31 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Taq, posted 08-08-2011 10:59 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 293 by frako, posted 08-09-2011 3:15 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 350 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 287 of 349 (628331)
08-08-2011 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Percy
08-07-2011 4:12 PM


Re: Still evading the issue I see.
You provided evidence of the creator and of how he influenced evolution? Really? Where? Oh, and did God turn out to be Christian, Islam, Hindu, Buddhist or other?

Yes I did.

Jar refuses to provide any response. I set out a logical argument demonstrating those things

I tried to get him to demonstrae why he believes his evidence is more or better, he did nothing

i tried to get him to show me the process of natural causes from start to finish, he wouldnt

I think you're providing wonderful examples of a couple of the creationist approaches to debate: making claims that you've proved things you've never proved, and misunderstanding how evidence works.

If I am mistaken on how evidence works,atleast in this instance, anyone is free to step up to the plate to demonstrate me wrong

My creationis approach is irrefutalbe and irresistible. If it is not then demostrae why

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Percy, posted 08-07-2011 4:12 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Percy, posted 08-10-2011 8:08 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 350 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 288 of 349 (628333)
08-08-2011 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Taq
08-08-2011 3:01 PM


Re: Logic demands
You mean "Why do I reject a false dichotomy?". That should answer itself as well.

No that is not what I am saying. I am initially saying, demonstrate why you think you have evidence of natural causes that are the cause of everything. Observing existence itself is not tantamount to knowing the cause of existence. Wouldnt you agree

But this is where you, Jar and the others have started with a misleading and false premise. Are you ready to admit you have no evidence of natural causes, or will you continue with your word play

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Taq, posted 08-08-2011 3:01 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 08-08-2011 10:30 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 291 by Taq, posted 08-08-2011 11:01 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 292 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-09-2011 12:28 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 289 of 349 (628336)
08-08-2011 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Dawn Bertot
08-08-2011 10:22 PM


Re: Logic demands
So far the only evidence is that of natural causes.

There is evidence of natural causes.

No evidence has EVER been presented of any cause other than a natural cause.

Please present the evidence of the creator or the method used by that critter to influence evolution or of some NOT NATURAL cause.

Until you present evidence equal to the evidence of natural causes you have nothing.

Since there is evidence that there are natural causes but no evidence of a creator or any method used by that critter to influence evolution logic demands that until such evidence is presented that the creator or the method used by that critter be simply disregarded.

It really is that simple.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-08-2011 10:22 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 290 of 349 (628340)
08-08-2011 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Dawn Bertot
08-08-2011 10:02 PM


Re: Logic demands
Instead of all of this, just look at the logical possibilites, because if you reject the scriptures, that is all you have. Wouldnt you agree

You always seem to miss a step. It is not about rejecting scripture. It is a lack of evidence which does not allow us to accept scripture. It is evidence first, then acceptance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-08-2011 10:02 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 291 of 349 (628341)
08-08-2011 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Dawn Bertot
08-08-2011 10:22 PM


Re: Logic demands
I am initially saying, demonstrate why you think you have evidence of natural causes that are the cause of everything.

I am not claiming that I know what caused everything. You are making claims that you know what caused everything. I am asking for evidence that backs up your claims. Where is it?

Are you ready to admit you have no evidence of natural causes, or will you continue with your word play

Word games? I am not the one shifting the burden of proof and using false dichotomies. That would be you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-08-2011 10:22 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 292 of 349 (628346)
08-09-2011 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Dawn Bertot
08-08-2011 10:22 PM


Re: Logic demands
hey Dawn,
I have posted this previously but you must have missed it.

I have been referring to you as female in my posts.

I know two Dawns, both female so it was the natural thing for me to do.

Other posters have now advised you are male so I will do so from now on. Sorry for the error.

I have posted about logic on this thread and it covers some of your questions and statements regarding logic. I wrote it after being tied in knots by discussions mostly with IamJoseph.

I notice you are still using terms logic and premise when discussing your point of view. Check out my post for another point of view.

here it is (again) -

Message 200


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-08-2011 10:22 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 293 of 349 (628351)
08-09-2011 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Dawn Bertot
08-08-2011 10:02 PM


Re: Logic demands
Instead of all of this, just look at the logical possibilites, because if you reject the scriptures, that is all you have. Wouldnt you agree

That would be the Viking scriptures right talk about a god right, he said im gonna deal wit those Ice giants once and for all and there has not been an ice giant around in thousands of years now that is what i call a miracle.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-08-2011 10:02 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 350 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 294 of 349 (628458)
08-09-2011 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Buzsaw
08-08-2011 12:46 AM


Re: Evidence Of A Creator
I'm sure I've missed some evidences which corroborate the arsenal of evidence which creationists should be citing, whether or not the skeptics admit to it.

Not at all, a very impressive post.

Creationists have fumbled the evidence ball due to apathy and reliance on blind faith. Faith should not be blind. The great Apostle Paul advised to "Prove all things." in his 1st letter to the Thessalonians, yet he is know as a great man of faith.

Corroborated data, such as distances, positions, temperatures, elements, forces, etc relative to the compatibility of our planet for life adds to your list. These, individually and alone may, perhaps, afford them some skepticism, but corroborated with your list, builds on our arsenal of evidence.

Sadly, precious few creationists have studiously corroborated and harmonized the amazing prophecies of the Biblical record. Our pulpits are essentially silent about them. The sheeple in the pews haven't a clue, nor do they care.

Having studied them for decades, they have become a significant factor in convincing me of the existence of higher intelligence existing in the Universe. Again don't expect any amount of this evidence to be acknowledged by our secularist friends. Poor deluded folk.

Corroborating prophecy with prophecy and pigeonholing them into the proper time frame is not for novices. It's been a 66 year study for me. The more I read and analyze them, the more I see their significance as we observe their fulfillment in what is turning out to be the 'latter times."

I would not presume to question your knowledge of prophecy and its related applications to evidences or thier fulfillment

it sounds as though you should write a thesis or a book concerning this issue, I would certainly buy it

I understand what you meanabout dropping the ball though, some are afraid to even present them as evidence, because they are unconfident in thier abilites or the information

In this instance I believe we are involved with a different breed of cat that would ignore such obvious evidence. We need to meet and destroy them on thier own turf

Remember when the Lord admonished disciples that this kind of evil spirit comes out only with much pray and fasting. Indicating that there are different levels of evil and it needs to be dealt with differently

These fellas need to be met on thier own turf and destroyed there

They need to be shown, as they incoreectly suppose, that they have somthing any better than anyone else, as evidence

Anyway very nice post, I enjoyed it

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Buzsaw, posted 08-08-2011 12:46 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 350 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 295 of 349 (628468)
08-09-2011 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Butterflytyrant
08-02-2011 5:28 AM


Re: A few points on logic...
1. Many premises put forward are unwarranted assumptions. If a premise has not been established with enough certainty to be considered true, then it cant be used to start a logical argument. The conclusion may end up being true but as it has been reached from a faulty premise, it is irrelevant. This is the problem that a lot of Creationists face here. Many on the other side already view their premise as faulty so the arguement is lost before it begins. If your beginning premise is that God or a deity of some sort exists, then you have an unwarranted assumption as the premise.

As you know for a premise to be invalid it has to be unwaarented or faulty. By faulty, it is meant, it is a logical contradiction. By unwarrented of course we mean there is no valid reason for beliving in it to begin with

Theism does neither, or atleast, it need not.

simply because the idea of the eixstence of God has been around for a long time does not mean that that is how the premise was formed to begin with.

Someone along time ago in a galaxay far far away observed the available evidence, law order an purpose, design etc and used this available evidence to form a valid, warrented premise. Not the other way around

So your assertion of stating with an unwarrented premise is unwarrented.

I would argue that the assumption that there are no deities is a much stronger logical, warranted assumption to begin with.

You can argue whatever you want, but its nonsensical to assume the evidence is greater when the evidence is the same for both positions

Noone can start from the premise that there is a god. This can only be taught.

Wrong

This is some serious bullshit Dawn. For someone who discusses a very strong attatchment to logic (often at great length), it would seem odd that you can even have this thought, let alone put it onto the forum.

In what reality do you think that a position on one subject or point requires and explanation of everything?

In a discussion on the origin of existence. Havent you been paying attention to what we are discussing

In the argument or should I say assertion that says, there are only evidences of natural causes.

Now if I am not mistaken that is indirectly implying that one can demonstrate that from start to finish

it falls to a logical proposition, the likes of which creationism is a more than valid and warrented consideration, yes as even as evidence

The evidence at hand doesnt need your approval to be evidence

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-02-2011 5:28 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by DrJones*, posted 08-09-2011 6:41 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 302 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-10-2011 9:37 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 296 of 349 (628469)
08-09-2011 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Dawn Bertot
08-09-2011 6:31 PM


Re: A few points on logic...
Someone along time ago in a galaxay far far away observed the available evidence, law order an purpose, design etc and used this available evidence to form a valid, warrented premise.

and your evidence for this assertion is?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-09-2011 6:31 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-09-2011 7:22 PM DrJones* has responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 350 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 297 of 349 (628471)
08-09-2011 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by DrJones*
08-09-2011 6:41 PM


Re: A few points on logic...
and your evidence for this assertion is?

Observation, evaluation, experimentation and even accidental discoveries are what what drive conclusions, not the other way around.

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by DrJones*, posted 08-09-2011 6:41 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Panda, posted 08-09-2011 7:51 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 299 by DrJones*, posted 08-09-2011 8:29 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 300 by AZPaul3, posted 08-09-2011 11:31 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 298 of 349 (628474)
08-09-2011 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Dawn Bertot
08-09-2011 7:22 PM


Re: A few points on logic...
Dawn Bertot writes:

Someone along time ago in a galaxay far far away observed the available evidence, law order an purpose, design etc and used this available evidence to form a valid, warrented premise.


Unlike Dr. Jones, I will not ask you for the evidence that you clearly do not have.
Firstly I would have to educate you about what evidence is, and then I would have to educate you in how to form coherent sentences.
Since no-one else has succeeded in teaching you English - I doubt that it would be possible to do so via a forum.
I am sure that your school was deeply ashamed at how poorly they educated you.
You would probably claim it is dyslexia - if you could spell it - but I think you are simply old-school stupid.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-09-2011 7:22 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1806
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 299 of 349 (628477)
08-09-2011 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Dawn Bertot
08-09-2011 7:22 PM


Re: A few points on logic...
Would you mind answering my question? Do you have evidence to support the assertion:

Someone along time ago in a galaxay far far away observed the available evidence, law order an purpose, design etc and used this available evidence to form a valid, warrented premise.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-09-2011 7:22 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3813
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 300 of 349 (628484)
08-09-2011 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Dawn Bertot
08-09-2011 7:22 PM


Non-Logic

and your evidence for this assertion is?

Observation, evaluation, experimentation and even accidental discoveries are what what drive conclusions, not the other way around.

No, Dawn, this does not answer what is being asked.

quote:
Observation ...

What observations are leading you to this assertion. More description is called for. Take this opportunity to be verbose.

quote:
evaluation ...

This doesn't say anything. What "evaluation"? Walk us through this evaluation, step-by-step. Depending on the evidence you are evaluating this should take at least a couple paragraphs of details of your evaluation.

quote:
experimentation ...

What experimentation? What specific hypotheses was being tested? How was the experiment conducted? What were the controls, null-hypothesis, equipment, sensors, etc. What were the raw results and your conclusions? If you take just one such experiment and relay some of these details this may help us get a better feel for what you are going on about.

quote:
accidental discoveries ...

Which ones? How do they evidence your assertion?

Remember in all this DrJones is referring specificaly to your statement:

quote:
Someone along time ago in a galaxay far far away observed the available evidence, law order an purpose, design etc and used this available evidence to form a valid, warrented premise. Not the other way around
in your Message 295 so no need to expand your explanations beyond what evidence you used to make these specific determinations are necessary unless you feel they would add understanding for us.

Edited by AZPaul3, : spelin


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-09-2011 7:22 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-13-2011 8:41 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
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