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Author Topic:   Wright et al. on the Process of Mutation
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 57 of 296 (632721)
09-09-2011 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Taq
09-06-2011 8:37 PM


beneficial mutations
In this case, it is wasteful. 1,999,999,998 bacteria do not get the mutation they need while only 2 do. Those other bacteria are also acquiring mutations in genes that do not need them. I would hazard a guess that there are more examples of mutations which result in death than there are beneficial mutations.

It is wasteful, by every measure. You would actually have a better chance of winning the random Powerball lottery than a bacteria has for getting the mutation it needs.

I don't think your conclusion is right.The 1,999,999,998 bacteria is the right number for an environment that the organism has lived for long time and maybe will live for long time still. and again the 2 is the right number as nature history proves.No waste at all.Nature knows well what is doing.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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 Message 56 by Taq, posted 09-06-2011 8:37 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Taq, posted 09-09-2011 6:22 PM zi ko has responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 61 of 296 (632769)
09-10-2011 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Taq
09-09-2011 6:22 PM


Re: beneficial mutations
i think you miss my point. 999,9999,998 of bacteria had got the mutation they needed according to organism's knowledge of the environment's virieties and instability. After all the organism had been living in the old environment for millions of years. Also there is the possibility that organism in succeeded generations will produce more of the "apropriate" mutations if it sees it usefull. the research as i know had not focused on this last possibility.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Taq, posted 09-09-2011 6:22 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Wounded King, posted 09-10-2011 4:32 AM zi ko has responded
 Message 64 by Taq, posted 09-12-2011 11:02 AM zi ko has responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 63 of 296 (632954)
09-11-2011 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Wounded King
09-10-2011 4:32 AM


Re: beneficial mutations
How on Earth would this latest ad hoc nonsense work? The organisms where the mutation is beneficial already have it. In what way would the other wild-type organisms 'see' that a particular mutation was beneficial in successive generations. You are going far beyond directed mutation mechanisms in a cell here to some sort of population wide communication phenomenon directing the de novo replication of specific mutations. In other words from a tenuous hypothesis to one that is a complete fabrication without a scintilla of evidence.

Of course there already exists a well known mechanism by which beneficial mutations will tend to proliferate in subsequent generations, it is called natural selection.

Of couers natural selection is an established mechanism, but does not exclude an increaseof beneficial mutations, as we already know, by other mechanisms. Nature has many times proved its inherit ability to invent very complicated ways of organizing life in away we just simply don't know yet. Random mutations and selection are some of them. Not all.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 67 of 296 (633244)
09-13-2011 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Wounded King
09-10-2011 4:32 AM


Re: beneficial mutations
How on Earth would this latest ad hoc nonsense work? The organisms where the mutation is beneficial already have it. In what way would the other wild-type organisms 'see' that a particular mutation was beneficial in successive generations. You are going far beyond directed mutation mechanisms in a cell here to some sort of population wide communication phenomenon directing the de novo replication of specific mutations. In other words from a tenuous hypothesis to one that is a complete fabrication without a scintilla of evidence.

You seem at first look right , but only in the perspectives of narrow lab conditions. Nature works on broad scale,with great varieties and areas of more or less affinity of an event,where organisms "see" and understand the changes happening around.There are according to Shapiro decision making loci even in one cell organisms. We know it happens in plants.
2 beneficial mutations in a billion of cells maybe is the right number,as it is proved by life. The 999,999,999,998 was again the right number for an an experience of same kind of environmet over millions of years. But you don't mention at all how many were the none beneficial mmutations in that particular event. that i think would be very helpful to to estimate any probability rate.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 68 of 296 (633249)
09-13-2011 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Taq
09-12-2011 11:02 AM


Re: beneficial mutations
For the bacteria without the needed mutation there were no successive generations. They stopped growing and were incapable of reproducing.

In real nature there are organisms in the fringes of an event that are affected some how. They survived and continued to reproduce.
I think you should provide the number of deleterious and indifferent mutations, so to be able to estimate any probability rate of beneficial mutations. Don't you think so?
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 74 of 296 (633818)
09-16-2011 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Taq
09-13-2011 12:33 PM


Re: beneficial mutations
I define random mutations as changes in the DNA sequence that are blind to the needs of the organism. IOW, mutations are random with respect to fitness. I am not saying that mutation rates are constant through time, nor am I saying that each base has an equal chance of being substituted, inserted, or deleted....... We are talking about mutations, not the ability of organisms to change their DNA expression patterns in response to the environment.

So you accept organisms are able to change their DNA expression patterns in responce to the environment. But where this interaction stops? If you accept that there is a mechanism for this, why this mechanism function does not reach to the point to involve inherited changes in genome? Forget all about I.D. I am talking only about nature,s own intelligence, that paves the way to random mutations regarding fitness, but not at all random regarding to life percervence.
Note that nature intelligence, so evident around us , man's brain the outmost examble,can equally be a result of evolution, with no supernatural involvement if you wish. It is a matter of belief choice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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 Message 71 by Taq, posted 09-13-2011 12:33 PM Taq has responded

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 76 of 296 (633825)
09-16-2011 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Wounded King
09-13-2011 11:57 AM


Re: beneficial mutations
If there were evidence for such population level interactions I'm not sure why we would not have been able to detect it.

"Molecular genetics has amply confirmed McClintock�s discovery that living organisms actively reorganize their genomes (5). It has also supported her view that the genome can "sense danger" and respond accordingly (56). " from 'A 21st century view of evolution' by J. SHAPIRO.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 89 of 296 (634463)
09-21-2011 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Taq
09-20-2011 7:27 PM


Re: beneficial mutations
It stops short of guiding mutations.
.
There is no reason to go go any further. Guiding had been completed by all preceded paving work. Nonandom mutations are not any more needed. Nature is clever to use all ways of action, as "random" mutations.

You are talking about things you have no evidence for.

The only difference between me and you is that I accept nature's intelligence, which i see all over around, while you accept randomness as the cause of mystery of life and evolution as well without any evidence. We are both just believers.

Or we can get rid of beliefs altogether and follow the evidence. So what evidence can I follow that will show me how mutations are not random with respect to fitness. Would you agree that this evidence is not found in this Wright et al. paper?

You are right . Mutations are random, but only to fitness, not to life perseverance.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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 Message 81 by Taq, posted 09-20-2011 7:27 PM Taq has responded

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 119 of 296 (635134)
09-27-2011 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Taq
09-26-2011 11:50 AM



If I am wrong then please show that I am wrong. Please explain how specificity to ssDNA is non-random with respect to fitness. Please explain how the bacteria prevent deleterious and neutral mutations through this mechanism. Also, please explain why the leuB- reversion rate is only 1 in every 500 million divisions.

I suppose mutations inlelation to fitness are random, but are they random in relation to life perservance? This i think is the crucial question. Randomness in relation to fintness could mean nothing,if it is not random in relation to life percervance, which actually shows the "Designer", or the "thinking" Nature, according to my information hypothesis.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 121 of 296 (635138)
09-27-2011 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Percy
09-23-2011 2:19 PM


Re: Do you agree that this specificity is not compatable with NeoRe: beneficial mutations
I honestly don't understand the fuss from IDists about environment influencing the direction of evolution. It's an ability that could evolve, and someday we may discover it already has, and that would still say nothing pro or con about a designer.

There are not only the IDsts making fuss about...There are also the believers of Nature's "intelligence", which random believers so unintelligently fight against, just becouse it is a different belief, that makes them to feel unconfortable.
This message is a reply to:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 122 of 296 (635141)
09-27-2011 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Taq
09-22-2011 11:28 AM


Re: beneficial mutations
No belief is necessary. I have shown through objective evidence that mutations are random. "Nature's intelligence" is nothing more than a metaphor you use. It is not an objective measure of anything as your posts have shown.

You have only shown(? ) that mutations are random in relation to fitness.Nature's intelligence is not simply a metaphor (what does it is supposed to mean?); it is an undeniable fact. Man's intelligence is a proof. Or do you think intelligence stops below human level?

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 144 of 296 (635448)
09-29-2011 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Percy
09-27-2011 7:15 AM


Fitness and your own term, "life perseverance," are synonyms.

Life perservation is a term wider than fitness. Fitness can be included in "life perservation" concept, as others as well; e.g life perservation through intelligent act or through a Designer's decision.
This message is a reply to:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 153 of 296 (636627)
10-08-2011 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Taq
09-27-2011 3:06 PM


Re: beneficial mutations
Then show that it exists with reference to the data in the paper. Show how a 1 in 500 million success rate evidences a type of intelligence. Show how a mechanism that produces deleterious and neutral mutations is an intelligent way to produce a beneficial mutation in 1 out of every 500 million individuals.

The evidence that shows intelligence is:if beneficial mutation is 1 per 500 million and this secures organism's survival, as in fact it does. Nature needs only what it is enough.

Proof of what? That everything else is intelligent too just because man is? That has to be the worst argument you have used yet.

I quote From Guenter Albrecht-Buehler and Robert Laughlin Rea work on CELL INTELLIGENCE “My experimental work during the past 30 years suggests that single tissue cells have their own data- and signal-processing capacities that help them control their movements and orientation...” “Cells can see…measure space and time and must be able to derive abstract data from physical signals.”

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 154 of 296 (636629)
10-08-2011 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Percy
09-29-2011 10:19 AM


but intelligence and designers are not part of any theory of mutation. Maybe you can provide an example of what you're thinking of?

Of course there is not such theory of mutation. But nature intelligence is a fact. See please my 153 message of this thread to Taq.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 159 of 296 (636839)
10-11-2011 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Percy
10-08-2011 3:07 PM


Re: beneficial mutations
you're claiming that environmental change improving the rate of beneficial mutations is evidence of intelligence

Yes.
The mutations are still random with respect to adaptation. There's no particular adaptation being chosen. There's nothing being designed with purpose and intent.

I quote from my work:
" Are random mutations, and natural selection consistent with my hypothesis and what is their role in evolution?
These basic Darwinian concepts remain essential tools in evolution. In spite of any “directionism” implied by the “thinking” neural system and the natural engineering systems ect, random mutations are a fact and so it is natural selection. Randomness of mutations as regards to fitness remains in action, but now is thought that it is a mechanism used by nature for its needs and its ultimate scope of preservation of life. The same applies to natural selection. So mutations can be: entirely random as regards fitness, semi-directed (by this term I mean mutations enhanced in rate or facilitated to happen in special loci, or otherwise), or entirely directed; but all of them are really directed in regard to life’s preservation (or death). "

then what happens to claims of the designer designing and constructing all life from bacteria to man?

Again i quote:
" Am I legitimized to base my hypothesis on the idea of nature’s innate intelligence and what I mean by it?
Intelligence: I don’t give it the original meaning of the word (namely, to choose between contingent alternatives). What I really mean is: in response to environmental and other factors, a naturally inside organism pre-existing mechanism, and by force of chemistry and physics, causes changes in the genome. So I think of it as a mechanism, but not “intelligence” in any traditional sense. Of course we have then the eternal question to face here: how was this made? But this is a second level question.... It doesn’t necessarily imply a Designer, but it can’t also of course preclude it."
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