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Author Topic:   How complex is God?
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 59 (403482)
06-03-2007 10:15 AM


I wish to inquire of creationists here the above question in order to ascertain if the hypothesis put forth by intelligent design is applicable to the intelligence of God or not. Since it is pointed out to me that creationists tend to assign different rules to God then perhaps we could also hear why the rules happen to conveniently arise when the hypothesis of intelligent design is applied to their God?

We can also point out that creationist argue that complexity can never merely appear without cause so why should God?
Intelligent design would be best for this topic.

Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 06-03-2007 10:22 AM sidelined has responded
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 06-03-2007 5:22 PM sidelined has responded
 Message 30 by mike the wiz, posted 07-10-2007 11:10 AM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-10-2007 2:16 PM sidelined has responded
 Message 45 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-05-2007 7:36 PM sidelined has responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1907
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 59 (403485)
06-03-2007 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
06-03-2007 10:15 AM


Invisable complexity
All thats gonna happen is that you will hear how the rules of evidence for God differ from the rules of evidence for other things. (IOW they will use the proclamation that God is an uncaused first cause)

Which forum do you wish to be in? Intelligent Design?

And do you want to polish up the OP a bit first? Let me know. ;)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 06-03-2007 10:15 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 59 (403488)
06-03-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
06-03-2007 10:22 AM


Re: Invisable complexity
Is the new Op any better?
This message is a reply to:
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1907
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 4 of 59 (403499)
06-03-2007 1:45 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 5 of 59 (403518)
06-03-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
06-03-2007 10:15 AM


Re-How complex is God
Hi sidelined,

Since God is all knowledge it would be impossible for finite man to ascertain how complex God is. But I will give you what the Bible says about it.

Isai 55:8 (KJV) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I think it would be like trying to explain where the singularity (the one the universe came from) came from but a lot harder.

In other words for me to understand or figure Him out I would have to be a bigger God than He is.

We can also point out that creationist argue that complexity can never merely appear without cause so why should God?

Exod 3:14 (KJV) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

The Bible explanation is all I can give. I Am. To me that means He has always been, is now, and will be at anytime that comes to be now.
But with a finite human mind it is hard to grasp eternity, or something that is eternal with no beginning or no end.

That is the reason I believe by Faith.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 06-03-2007 10:15 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 3273 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 6 of 59 (403531)
06-03-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
06-03-2007 10:22 AM


Re: Invisable complexity
Phat,

IOW they will use the proclamation that God is an uncaused first cause

And make unholy hypocrites of themselves in the process.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 59 (403550)
06-03-2007 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
06-03-2007 5:22 PM


Re: Re-How complex is God
ICANT

Since God is all knowledge it would be impossible for finite man to ascertain how complex God is

Then it would be safe to say that God is more complex than his creation?
If so, then why can we not apply the intelligent design theorem { complexity indicates intelligent design} to god and ask the same question. What created the complexity that is God?

But with a finite human mind it is hard to grasp eternity, or something that is eternal with no beginning or no end.

I do not think that concept of eternity as grasped by humans is the problem but,rather, the difficulty posed by stating that God had no beginning.
If God had no beginning then how can he have progressed through time to reach any future event as this would indicate that time had passed for God which indicates that some moment in the past must be referenced and that,in turn, means that his existence cannot have extended infinitely into the past.


" Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!!What a ride!"
-----------------------------------------
What delightful hosts they are-Love and Laughter!
Lingeringly I turn away at this late hour,yet glad
They have not withheld from me their high hospitality.
So at the door I pause to press their hands once more
And say,"So fine a time!Thank you both...and goodbye.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 8 of 59 (403559)
06-04-2007 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by sidelined
06-03-2007 10:54 PM


Re: Re-How complex is God
If God had no beginning then how can he have progressed through time to reach any future event as this would indicate that time had passed for God which indicates that some moment in the past must be referenced and that,in turn, means that his existence cannot have extended infinitely into the past.

Trying to make God human is where the problem is.

You are saying because you are limited by time God has to be limited by time also.

Why do you come to that conclusion?

2Pet 3:8 (KJS) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I am sure you have seen this from YECers trying to justify their long days. But all Peter is saying is that God is not limited to time as we are.

I am going to stick my neck out here and probably get it chopped off. But I think you are wanting to know why creationist can believe in an eternal God who had no beginning

I believe that as far as God is concerned that there is no time only a great big now. In other words as far as God is concerned the universe began (time quanta) 3.3 x 10-44 sec
ago and the world as you and I know it will cease to exist (time quanta) 3.3 x 10-44 sec
from now. This is the smallest unit of time we comprehend, but with God it could be a lot shorter time period.

Remember the quote from Message 5

quote:
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

From the earth to the edge of the universe is a long way.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by sidelined, posted 06-03-2007 10:54 PM sidelined has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Doddy, posted 06-04-2007 3:49 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 41 by jaywill, posted 07-19-2007 6:26 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Doddy
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 9 of 59 (403564)
06-04-2007 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by ICANT
06-04-2007 12:32 AM


Re: Re-How complex is God
ICANT writes:

Remember the quote from Re-How complex is God (Message 5)

So, if I may paraphrase that piece of scripture.

"God is infinitely more complex than you"

Seems to answer sidelined's question, right?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ICANT, posted 06-04-2007 12:32 AM ICANT has responded

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 10 of 59 (403572)
06-04-2007 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Doddy
06-04-2007 3:49 AM


Re: Re-How complex is God
Hi Doddy,

"God is infinitely more complex than you"

God is all knowledge. Does that make Him more complex than I am, I think that would deserve a yes don't you.

sidelined writes:

If so, then why can we not apply the intelligent design theorem { complexity indicates intelligent design} to god and ask the same question. What created the complexity that is God?

I suppose sidelined, yourself or anyone could attribute anything they want to God. You can try to define Him, You can try to understand Him, You can deny that He exists, You can try to explain Him away. But the fact remains as the quoted passage says, our thoughts can't reach His thoughts.

I am not one that has ever said, complexity indicates intelligent design. In fact I believe that a lot of the stuff we see today would be classified as faulty design.

But I believe those faulty designs have come about because of the mutations that everyone talks about.

I believe in the beginning God created everything perfect. Due to the first man willfully disobeying God we have been devolving every since.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Damouse, posted 06-05-2007 8:07 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 12 by bluegenes, posted 06-05-2007 8:46 PM ICANT has responded

    
Damouse
Member (Idle past 2983 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 11 of 59 (403908)
06-05-2007 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICANT
06-04-2007 9:33 AM


Re: Re-How complex is God
Hey ICANT.

Have to point out that all your reasoning and proof is a matter of circular reasoning, and as such would not stand up to par in a logical debate. The proof you offer (scripture) and the derivations you make from it are all based on the assumtion that god does exist, and that means that scripture is true, which means that god exists, which means scriptture is true...

You see what im saying? neither scenario have any external proof. "God is real because the bible says so, and the bible says so because god wrote it." To the faith, its true. To one who does not begin with the assumption that god is real to begin with, it doesnt really stand.

and by your books it was a WOMAN! Dont blame us men for the woman poking around! :D

Lightbulb moment!
speaking of which, if god is all intelligent, then he knows all. If he knows all, he knew Humankind would fall to temptation. If he knew humankind would fall to temptation, he must have built us allowing for that, and if anything, built adam and eve FOR that. If he built us allowing for that, and he built us in his image, then is god flawed? oooh i like that train of thought! never thunk down that alley before....

Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.


This statement is false.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by ICANT, posted 06-05-2007 9:15 PM Damouse has responded
 Message 16 by shiloh, posted 06-23-2007 5:48 AM Damouse has not yet responded

    
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 555 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 12 of 59 (403912)
06-05-2007 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICANT
06-04-2007 9:33 AM


Re: Re-How complex is God
I believe in the beginning God created everything perfect. Due to the first man willfully disobeying God we have been devolving every since.

So a perfect man willfully disobeyed God?

Does that mean that if you are striving for perfection in the eyes of God, you should attempt to do the same thing?


This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 13 of 59 (403914)
06-05-2007 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by bluegenes
06-05-2007 8:46 PM


Re: Re-How complex is God
Does that mean that if you are striving for perfection in the eyes of God, you should attempt to do the same thing?

I am perfect in the sight of God. All my sins are covered by the blood of Jesus.

I am not perfect in the eyes of Jesus that is the one I have to work on every day.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 14 of 59 (403915)
06-05-2007 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Damouse
06-05-2007 8:07 PM


Re: Re-How complex is God
and by your books it was a WOMAN! Dont blame us men for the woman poking around!

Eve was decieved by Satan. Adam chose to eat the fruit and die with Eve. He did not have to eat the fruit, neither was he tempted to eat the fruit.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Damouse, posted 06-05-2007 8:07 PM Damouse has responded

Replies to this message:
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Damouse
Member (Idle past 2983 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 15 of 59 (403921)
06-05-2007 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ICANT
06-05-2007 9:15 PM


Re: Re-How complex is God
you didnt quote the smilie. this :D = joke.
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