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Author Topic:   Buying a new computer
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 16 of 55 (629804)
08-20-2011 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by frako
08-18-2011 8:54 PM


Side track, off topic
Frako - I have to ask....
I've seen a lot of your posts where you say something like the following:
i bought it just because a noter one was in the same price range
"a noter" in English is written "another". This is fascinating because I suspect you have a homeland language story here - a Slovenian story. Can you shed some light on this? Pretty please?

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by frako, posted 08-18-2011 8:54 PM frako has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 17 of 55 (629838)
08-20-2011 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
08-18-2011 11:40 AM


crashfrog writes:
Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) 4 x 256KB L2 Cache 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1155 95W Quad-Core Desktop Processor BX80623I72600K
ASUS Maximus IV Gene-Z LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
Antec NEO ECO 620C 620W Continuous Power ATX12V v2.3 / EPS12V 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply
Kingston HyperX 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
Western Digital Caviar Blue WD10EALX 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive
I was looking at something similar for myself, sooner or later (next week or next month or so... not in a massive rush).
Am I reading this incorrectly, or did you only get them 4GB of RAM? I was under the imression that you may as well be getting 8GB+ at this point... was there a reason for this?
I am basically looking for a new computer to be nice and awesome for my wife to use daily (5+ hours... working from home) and for me/us to use daily once Diablo III comes out...
(Looking to keep/use this computer for... probably... around 5 years)
Any free advice you care to offer would be appreciated.
I am open to any kind of hardware (and have no problem putting it together myself, just don't know what would go together best), and looking to keep a budget below $1000... below $800 or so would be cool, but not a restriction.
I can also understand that these sorts of questions/requests can be... tiresome
So no worries if you just want to ignore this.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 18 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 11:29 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 19 by Nuggin, posted 08-20-2011 12:19 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2011 1:11 PM Stile has replied
 Message 23 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 2:57 PM Stile has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 18 of 55 (629839)
08-20-2011 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Stile
08-20-2011 11:26 AM


The only reason to get 8gb is because 2x4gb is relatively cheap. The only time when 4gb is not enough is if you do photo/video editing editing or something of the sort. No games (as of yet) even need more than 4.
That said, 8gb is cheap enough to make it silly NOT to get it.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Stile, posted 08-20-2011 11:26 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 19 of 55 (629842)
08-20-2011 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Stile
08-20-2011 11:26 AM


More RAM!
I think Hooah is right on this one.
The price difference between 4gb of RAM and 8gb of RAM may not be all that significant.
Usually with RAM prices there's a jump at the high end.
So, (completely making up these numbers!)
4 gb $120
8 gb $180
16 gb $220
32 gb $850
The goal is to get the most RAM before you hit the big ramp up on the high end chips.
8GB may be excessive now, but since you have to pull out chips to upgrade, you're better off spending a little now rather than replacing the chips later for much more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Stile, posted 08-20-2011 11:26 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 55 (629846)
08-20-2011 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Stile
08-20-2011 11:26 AM


Am I reading this incorrectly, or did you only get them 4GB of RAM? I was under the imression that you may as well be getting 8GB+ at this point... was there a reason for this?
Yes, we only got 4gb at this time; the motherboard has slots for another RAM kit, but they decided that they didn't need the extra RAM right now. They're only mostly doing Office and World of Warcraft on it. If my father-in-law ever starts raiding in WoW then yes, he'll probably want the extra ram. (Although I do just fine with only 3.)
They said they wanted a Core i7; I guess they saw computers with that at Best Buy or something. Whatever, I don't judge; I just built what they told me, basically. I think it should be relatively future-proof.
Any free advice you care to offer would be appreciated.
Well, DIII will most likely take advantage of as much video hardware as you care to throw at it, so save some money in your build for a decent video card.
I had, like, zero configuration issues with the ASUS motherboard. It has the most advanced BIOS I've ever seen. If you're looking for a good motherboard, it's a good place to start. The one caveat: it's mATX, so it only has two slots for cards. It'll fit in a larger ATX case, but if you feel like you need more slots then I'd look for a full-size ATX motherboard. Don't know anything about those these days (but check out this ASUS Republic of Gamers-branded gear, it's top-notch stuff.)
I had literally no problems with this build, everything fit together nicely and booted on the first try. Zero issues, would buy again, etc. If I was going to build a gaming system for myself I'd start with almost exactly this machine, in whatever case I felt I wanted. (Look at these SilverStone cases! Love 'em.) One thing not on this list that I would do for my gaming system is a two hard-drive setup: I'd get a WD Raptor, one of those really fast but small hard drives (or maybe a solid-state drive) for the OS and applications to live on, and then a very large 7500 rpm hard drive, like 1 TB, for data storage. If you're buying a case - my in-laws weren't, since they already had one - then you probably don't need a replacement power supply for it (yet.) See what comes already built in it. They usually sell them as a combo.
Since DIII isn't out yet I would amortize the cost by using the Core i7's onboard graphics for your wife's work-type stuff. By the time DIII is out, better video cards will be out as well.
Usually motherboard makers will tell you what RAM to get; that's the safe bet. But they won't tell you until you buy the motherboard and open the manual. It's rarely mattered in my experience. I don't buy cut-rate ram, I stick with Kingston, Corsair, PNY, and other brands that subject their chips to better testing. Get the fastest clock rate ram that your motherboard supports - the ASUS board I got handles 1666 mhz ram - and basically you can ignore the memory timings and CAS latency.
Hrm, that's quite a bit to throw at you. Let me see if I can narrow it down somewhat: when you're shopping for a new system, it's worth it to spend quite a bit on a motherboard and CPU, because those are more expensive to upgrade later. But the premium for the top-notch "Extreme"-style gear isn't worth it. It's easy to upgrade RAM so buy it whenever you want more. The applications that will benefit from a fast hard drive are a lot smaller than the ones that benefit from a large hard drive, so think about it in terms of buying a lot of cheap, slow gigabytes and some smaller amount of expensive, fast gigabytes. (Hence, two hard drives - fast and small for OS and apps, large and slow for music and photos.) And then lastly - buy video hardware as late as you can, they steadily get faster and cheaper. Buy at the top of the "mid-range" for the most bang for your buck in that regard.
If you took the motherboard and CPU I got, the RAM, the HD, the power supply, got (or found) a cheap case which you then cut some cooling holes in, you could easily come in around 600 bucks. That gives you several hundred to spend on a video card down the road. When DIII comes out, $200 will get you quite a bit of card if you shop online.
How does that sound? Helpful? I could go on and on, frankly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Stile, posted 08-20-2011 11:26 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 2:33 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 38 by Stile, posted 08-22-2011 10:58 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 55 (629847)
08-20-2011 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Nuggin
08-20-2011 12:19 PM


Re: More RAM!
8GB may be excessive now, but since you have to pull out chips to upgrade, you're better off spending a little now rather than replacing the chips later for much more.
Well, it depends what you get. If you're not going to fill your RAM slots, and there's no real reason to when you're putting a new computer together, you can get an 8gb kit that only takes two slots. Then whatever RAM you decide to get later just adds to that.
But do buy and install DIMMs in matched pairs. They're faster that way. Make sure you have a dual-channel motherboard and buy dual-channel kits.
It's not a huge deal either way. Nothing people are doing out there with their computers takes even 3gb of ram, much less 8. Games don't even take up that kind of ram. (And remember that if you're going to use more than 3gb, you need to be using 64-bit Windows or the ram isn't available to programs.)
I'm not opposed to more RAM - whatever, it's cheap, the 4gb kit was like 40 bucks - but it doesn't solve any current problems, IMO. The goal in building a system is to avoid performance bottlenecks. At 4gb the bottleneck is certainly not going to be your ram.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 22 of 55 (629850)
08-20-2011 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
08-20-2011 1:11 PM


I'd get a WD Raptor, one of those really fast but small hard drives (or maybe a solid-state drive)
Any SSD smokes the pants off of a Raptor and is WAAYYY cheaper when considering gb/$ ratio.
a very large 7500 rpm hard drive,
Minor correction: 7200 RPM
then you probably don't need a replacement power supply for it (yet.) See what comes already built in it. They usually sell them as a combo.
If you skimp on the PSU, don't complain when ALL your parts burn up because it fried.
Since DIII isn't out yet I would amortize the cost by using the Core i7's onboard graphics for your wife's work-type stuff. By the time DIII is out, better video cards will be out as well.
Onboard graphics is dependent on the motherboard, not CPU.
and basically you can ignore the memory timings and CAS latency.
Oh my my my....NO! CAS is far more important than bandwidth. And it's 1600, not 1666.
cheap case which you then cut some cooling holes in..
What the hell?
I could go on and on, frankly.
Please don't.
I really apologize if this came off rude, but you are not exactly giving the best advice here. Some of it is actually bad advice.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2011 1:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2011 3:37 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 23 of 55 (629855)
08-20-2011 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Stile
08-20-2011 11:26 AM


Here:
i5 Sandy Bridge: $190
Crucial M4 60gb SSD: $115
Spinpoint F3 1tb: $60
Kingston HyperX 2x4gb: $49
Gigabyte GA-Z68p: $110
GeForce GTX 560Ti: $240
Cooler Master Storm Scout: $80
Corsair CX600: $70
This set up will rock ANY game at max. Total shipped from Newegg: $923.18. I can email you the cart if you want.
Edited by hooah212002, : forgot to add PSU

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Stile, posted 08-20-2011 11:26 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2011 3:43 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 39 by Stile, posted 08-22-2011 11:05 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 24 of 55 (629857)
08-20-2011 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by hooah212002
08-20-2011 2:33 PM


Any SSD smokes the pants off of a Raptor and is WAAYYY cheaper when considering gb/$ ratio.
I'm just not ready to send people to SSD's, frankly. The longevity may not be there - every sector in a SSD has a limited number of re-writes, frequently as low as 500. That's just too little to support I/O intensive stuff like the operating system.
HD's are a proven technology and SSD's aren't that much faster, and usually quite a bit smaller, than a good HD. I don't think SSD's are appropriate for a computer someone wants to keep using for five years. You'll wear out all your sectors, for sure.
Onboard graphics is dependent on the motherboard, not CPU.
No, that's not correct. The new Core i7's (at least, possibly the i5) have on-CPU integrated graphics. It doesn't work unless you have a chipset that supports it; I know the Z68 chipset does, at least. The H61's and H67's do as well, they're designed for HTPC's for the most part.
If you skimp on the PSU, don't complain when ALL your parts burn up because it fried.
Agreed. But, a good case will ship with a brand-name PS or ship with nothing at all. That's what you want to look for.
Oh my my my....NO! CAS is far more important than bandwidth.
Not in my experience. Again, the goal on gaming for a budget is to eliminate bottlenecks, not eke every last drop of performance out of every part. Games get slow when they need to spool a bunch of data from the HD to the RAM; bandwidth matters much more for that operation than CAS timing.
What the hell?
C'mon, junior. If you haven't cut a blowhole into a case ever, then you're nothing but a script kiddy. Why don't you go play some Xbox and let the adults talk hardware for a minute? (Oh, I apologize if that came off as rude.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 2:33 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 3:52 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 55 (629858)
08-20-2011 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by hooah212002
08-20-2011 2:57 PM


C'mon, really? Why would you pay $200 for an i5 when you can get the eminently-overclockable i7 for another hundred? More cache, hyperthreading (twice the logical cores), virtualization (for booting other OS's in virtual windows, among other stupid tricks), and it's way faster:
Dumb. Skimping on the CPU is a sure-way to be shopping for another computer in 2 years.
Gigabyte GA-Z68p: $110
Gigabyte? I think I just puked in my mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 2:57 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 3:53 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 48 by hooah212002, posted 08-23-2011 6:09 PM crashfrog has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 26 of 55 (629861)
08-20-2011 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
08-20-2011 3:37 PM


The longevity may not be there
Long enough. You will be in the market for a new drive LOOOONNNNGGGG before the NAND wears out. Your argument had weight 4 years ago when SSD's first came on scene, but not today.
SSD's aren't that much faster
WHAT? Surely you jest. WD Raptors are the ONLY mechanical hard drive that can even hold a candle to SSD's and even then, SSD's smoke 'em. We are talking a difference of 14ms access time for a Raptor to <0.1ms for SSD's, not to mention 4k random read/write speeds.
You'll wear out all your sectors, for sure.
Not in five years you won't.
The new Core i7's (at least, possibly the i5) have on-CPU integrated graphics. It doesn't work unless you have a chipset that supports it; I know the Z68 chipset does, at least. The H61's and H67's do as well, they're designed for HTPC's for the most part.
Yea, I know. But you still need a motherboard with onboard graphics. And a mobo with a crappy onboard graphics chip vs. one with a good one......you tell me.
If you haven't cut a blowhole into a case ever
Tell me: what good does having a big ass hole in your case do? Now, if you said "cut a hole and put a fan and fan cover in it", I wouldn't have said shit. You can't just randomly cut holes in your case without factoring in airflow.
Look crash: I am an overclocker and case modder. This is my hobby.
Put it this way: the current MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) of SSD's on the market is AT LEAST 1.2 million hours. Most are more like 2 million.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2011 3:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2011 5:45 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 27 of 55 (629862)
08-20-2011 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
08-20-2011 3:43 PM


I am well aware that an i7 outperforms an i5. However, not by enough to warrant the extra 100 bucks. Remember: I had to keep his build under $1k? Besides, the overclockability of Sandy Bridge i5's makes it a moot point.
Gigabyte? I think I just puked in my mouth.
To each his own. I've owned numberous gigabyte boards with no issue.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2011 3:43 PM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2011 5:48 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 28 of 55 (629864)
08-20-2011 4:43 PM


Ok, I have no intention of getting into a pissing contest so I apologize for my brashness. This is a subject that does better when people share knowledge as opposed to "I am smarter than you" so I apologize for acting that way.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 29 of 55 (629869)
08-20-2011 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by hooah212002
08-20-2011 3:52 PM


You will be in the market for a new drive LOOOONNNNGGGG before the NAND wears out. Your argument had weight 4 years ago when SSD's first came on scene, but not today.
They're just not proven yet. Sorry, but they're not. And so tiny! I'm sure we'll all move to 1TB SSD's in the future, but they're too "niche" for people who just want to rock some DIII and make PowerPoints. We're trying to keep under a budget, right? If Stile wants to get an SSD - which I actually did suggest, if you'll recall - that's fine. I just don't think they're advanced to the point where it's stupid not to have one, which is what you seem to think.
WHAT? Surely you jest.
No, I mean look at the numbers.
Sure, seek time is blazin' fast. But seek isn't the bottleneck, it's throughput. And SSD's don't have much of an advantage. They take longer to write, too.
But you still need a motherboard with onboard graphics.
Are you listening to me? No, you don't. Intel is putting the integrated graphics processor in the CPU die. That's what they're doing with all the space created by 32nm fabrication. You just need a chipset that supports the CPU-integrated GPU, but that's all of the higher-end chipsets, H61 and above. You don't need graphics of any kind on the motherboard, just the right chipset and a monitor port.
And a mobo with a crappy onboard graphics chip vs. one with a good one......you tell me.
No, I agree with you. But you need to consider the use case, here:
1) Insignificant/low impact gaming until Diablo III comes out.
2) No new computer till 2016.
So you tell me. Does $200 buy you a better video card now, or six months from now when DIII is out? That shouldn't be a tough one. Does $60 buy you more ram now, or six months from now?
Deferring purchasing during this time when all this machine is going to run is Office makes sense. You have to admit that. It's not like Newegg is going to close up shop. What's the rush?
Tell me: what good does having a big ass hole in your case do?
Depends where it is, doesn't it?
Look crash: I am an overclocker and case modder. This is my hobby.
Look Hooah, mine too. Here's mine:
It's cosmetic, but still, I like it. You don't have to. I submit it only as evidence that I'm not afraid to take a dremel and a can of primer to a computer. (Never seen a plasma globe in anybody else's PC. Probably because, as I discovered, the transformer fucks with your microphone.) And I've probably specced, priced, and assembled more systems than you for more different people. This isn't a dickwaving contest, we're trying to figure out how Stile can satisfy his use case without blowing the budget. I think his dollar is better spent on the CPU and motherboard. Maybe it's worth it on the SSD, instead. I'm open to some evidence for this notion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 3:52 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 7:48 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 32 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 8:29 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 30 of 55 (629870)
08-20-2011 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by hooah212002
08-20-2011 3:53 PM


Besides, the overclockability of Sandy Bridge i5's makes it a moot point.
I dunno, I don't get the impression Stile wants to OC. He certainly shouldn't try to do it with the stock Intel cooler.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by hooah212002, posted 08-20-2011 3:53 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
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