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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 71 of 189 (733616)
07-19-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
07-19-2014 9:43 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
Phat writes:

Do we humans have the ability to judge the Judge?


Who appointed Him Judge?

Edited by zombie ringo, : Spellllling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-19-2014 9:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 07-19-2014 3:26 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 73 of 189 (733648)
07-19-2014 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
07-19-2014 3:26 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
Phat writes:

... no authority save our own.


Not at all. I stand for collective authority. To paraphrase Thomas Paine, the people are better off being governed by themselves instead of by some distant despot.

Phat writes:

Perhaps you mistrust the Creator.


I certainly distrust His self-proclaimed messengers. How many times do we have to go through this? The people who claim to be "in communion" with God are a bunch of yahoos that I wouldn't trust with my lawnmower, much less life-and-death decisions.

Phat writes:

Did God cause any wars?


His representatives did, in His name. Why should I believe them when they say He is good and Satan is evil?

Phat writes:

Humans are their own worst enemy.


Not if your God is real.

Phat writes:

Thus...as to the question of who put God in charge? I would answer by saying that God put us in charge and we have failed miserably.


The question was: Who put God in charge of putting anybody in charge? Who put Him in charge of judging our failures?

Lee Harvey Oswald was a self-appointed judge, jury and executioner too. It's not always a good idea.

Edited by zombie ringo, : Spellig.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 07-19-2014 3:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 10-29-2014 2:28 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 77 of 189 (739932)
10-29-2014 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
10-29-2014 2:28 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
Phat writes:

God ultimately has absolute and unlimited power, but in our lifetimes He has allowed us some room to question, challenge, and deny...should we so desire.


Why limit it to our lifetimes? If the afterlife is supposedly more important than the present life, why should the standards for it be lower?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 10-29-2014 2:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Theodoric, posted 10-29-2014 3:40 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 89 of 189 (743215)
11-28-2014 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
11-28-2014 7:33 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
Faith writes:

I didn't "need" it, but I was very happy to find it true.


I too would be happy to find it true - but it isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 11-28-2014 7:33 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 11-28-2014 3:04 PM ringo has responded
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 11-29-2014 1:54 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 92 of 189 (743292)
11-29-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
11-28-2014 3:04 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
Faith writes:

No ears to hear I guess.


Heard it, believed it, thought about it, realized it was bunk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 11-28-2014 3:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 93 of 189 (743294)
11-29-2014 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
11-29-2014 1:54 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Phat writes:

Is truth providing a homeless man some food?


The idea that we should provide a homeless man with food is more "truth" than anything you'll ever hear about gods, the afterlife, etc.

Phat writes:

How about buying him a beer?


Giving him the dignity of making his own decision is in the same ballpark as giving him food. If he got a little respect from other people, he might find some respect for himself and turn his own life around. So yes, give him the money and let him decide what to do with it.

Phat writes:

Is it true that some folks won't be helped by the beer and others would?


Most likely, yes, but we aren't always good at predicting which is which. When Safeway boots you out the door a year before retirement and you're looking for a new job, that CEO who interviews you might say, "Hey, I remember you. You gave me a dollar once when I was down and out. I spent it on beer but it gave me something to think about. It really changed my life."

It might take a thousand of us to have one turn out like that, but isn't it worth it?

Phat writes:

Is truth determined through facts? Evidence?Are there other ways to discern truth?


No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 11-29-2014 1:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 11-29-2014 10:33 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 100 of 189 (743372)
11-30-2014 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by NoNukes
11-29-2014 10:33 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
NoNukes writes:

How often have you helped a homeless person by giving him a beer?


That's exactly my point: I don't know. Maybe never. Maybe forty times.

Call it my version of Pascal's wager if you like but I don't want to risk not helping somebody. I give a dollar to anybody who asks. Ask and ye shall receive.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 11-29-2014 10:33 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2014 5:26 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 103 of 189 (743448)
12-01-2014 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by NoNukes
11-30-2014 5:26 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
NoNukes writes:

You are advising that giving out beer money might help boost self-esteem, but you actually have no reason or experience to share with us about any results.


I'm not "advising" anything; I'm pointing out why one approach might possibly have good results. And no, there is no way of following up on the results of every dollar I give away.

The do-gooder approach that you seem to advocate is fine too, as long as it isn't used to rationalize doing nothing.

Edited by ringo, : Rearranged negatives.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2014 5:26 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2014 8:17 AM ringo has responded
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 12-02-2014 10:17 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 107 of 189 (743558)
12-02-2014 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by NoNukes
12-02-2014 8:17 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
NoNukes writes:

I didn't ask you to follow up on every dollar you give away. But you can follow up if you see the same people repeatedly over a period of time.


I don't see the same people repeatedly.

What... I'm... saying... is... I don't turn somebody down just because he might use the money to buy beer or drugs. If he tells me he needs money for food or bus fare, I give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't polygraph him. I don't follow him and blacklist him if he wasn't telling the truth.

NoNukes writes:

As for doing nothing, no I'm not advocating that either.


All too often, "He'll probably spend it on drugs," is an excuse to do nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2014 8:17 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 01-16-2015 6:03 PM ringo has responded
 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2015 3:55 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 108 of 189 (743559)
12-02-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
12-02-2014 10:17 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Phat writes:

In essence, I would be supporting an extended family of dysfunctional addicted adults with the nebulous hope that one day one or more of them might benefit from my hard earned funds and turn their own life around?


quote:
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Maybe you should change the title of the thread to Faith, nebulous Hope, Charity and Belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 12-02-2014 10:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 111 of 189 (747624)
01-17-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
01-16-2015 6:03 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Phat writes:

We need to be wise Stewards with the money we are given.


Are we though? Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 01-16-2015 6:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 2:59 PM ringo has responded
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 5:21 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 114 of 189 (747681)
01-18-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
01-17-2015 2:59 PM


Re: Who Chooses Which Panhandler To Help?
Phat writes:

Not everyone who says "do you have any spare change" is necessarily eligible for a gift.


quote:
Matthew 7:7-10 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

That's God's policy. Why would you supersede it?

Phat writes:

...I obey the inner unction.


Do you?
quote:
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 2:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 5:15 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 115 of 189 (747682)
01-18-2015 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by NoNukes
01-17-2015 3:55 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
NoNukes writes:

Just don't make silly claims that you are helping when you do as you do.


I didn't make any claim. I said that I don't like to risk not helping when a couple of dollars might help.

NoNukes writes:

You've advanced a scenario where your trust in the person is going to elevate them somehow. I have direct experience that says it does not.


Your direct experience of a dog with three legs does not disprove the existence of dogs with four legs.

NoNukes writes:

And frankly there is no real evidence that you give a hoot since you don't make any effort to see the same people.


I don't need to show you any evidence that I give a hoot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2015 3:55 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 125 of 189 (765886)
08-07-2015 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
08-06-2015 5:15 PM


Re: Who Chooses Which Panhandler To Help?
Phat writes:

The scripture refers to us asking God...not each other.


No, it draws a pretty distinct parallel between what we do for our own children and what God does for his children. The implication is that we should treat all people the same as we treat our children.

Phat writes:

If more street people trusted God rather than attempting to sponge money off of every driver with an extra buck in their wallet, they might get off of the streets and not become codependant on begging.


If more Christians trusted God, they might actually DO what Jesus said: sell what they have, give to the poor and follow Him.

Phat writes:

I wouldnt simply expect anyone and everyone to hand me money either. If I was in need and was in prayer, God would provide through His people.


So you wouldn't ask and receive, like Jesus said. You'd just sit and wait to receive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 5:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19139
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 126 of 189 (765887)
08-07-2015 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
08-06-2015 5:21 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Is it wiser to give the money to a panhandler or to spend it at Starbucks?


It depends on the moment and the circumstances. Certainly one is allowed to spend some of their money on themselves.

Of course I spend money on myself too (though I've never been to Starbucks). But I'm the one who gets the flak when I suggest that it's okay to give money to panhandlers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 5:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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