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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 4 of 189 (630368)
08-24-2011 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-23-2011 12:35 PM


This is my idea.
My idea for this fora would be to assume that there is some kind of deity or supernatural intent behind the universe. Then to discuss the possible intent or rational behind the world being what it is, given the deity in question made a conscious effort to create.

This could be Allah, Yaweh, Odin or whatever, moving in mysterious ways and our job (here) is to provide a rationale for the behaviour of the deity.

Kind of like apologetics, but not just for xians.

BTW, good to see you here, Phat, this site could do with you as a mod.


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Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 9 of 189 (630841)
08-28-2011 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
08-28-2011 12:27 PM


Re: This is my idea.
I would be looking to examine the properties of the world and infer characteristics about the god from that.

For example we know that humans are capable of loving each other. From that we could hypothesise that a god would also be be able to experience love.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 11 of 189 (630904)
08-29-2011 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dogmafood
08-29-2011 4:30 AM


Re: This is my idea.
If that is where the evidence leads should we shy away from conclusions simply because they conflict with what we want?

Even if we do make the assumption that we can infer characteristics of a god from the properties of the world we still a questions such as is the world a reflection of a god or is the god a reflection of the world?

How could we even test the difference?


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 13 of 189 (630929)
08-29-2011 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dogmafood
08-29-2011 9:28 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
The idea of a personal god is beyond the pale of reason and only serves to illuminate our desire for there to be such a thing.

I'm inclined to agree. If there is a creator deity of some kind I can only imagine that either it wants the world this way or it is not omnipotent.

If it wants the world the way it is it can fuck off. The pain and suffering in the world is then only necessary because that is what the god wants.

If the god is not omnipotent then I can take or leave it depending on what I would get out of worshiping it.

As an aside the psychologist in me does wonder about the need for certainty biblical literalists seem to have about the nature of their god.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 27 of 189 (630960)
08-29-2011 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
08-29-2011 12:48 PM


Re: This is my idea.
I disagree. Some evidence is required for faith.

How could one have faith in something one has never heard of?

We must assume we can trust our senses else we may as well give up any enquiry as we never be confident that what we know is accurate.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 33 of 189 (630972)
08-29-2011 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
08-29-2011 3:59 PM


Re: This is my idea.
If the evidence is sufficient to convince the individual then it is hardly faith.

My idea of faith is belief in something despite evidence to the contrary.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 34 of 189 (630973)
08-29-2011 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Stile
08-29-2011 4:15 PM


Re: The nature of gods
In the world of RPGs we call that 'power creep'.

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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 40 of 189 (631039)
08-30-2011 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by iano
08-29-2011 5:41 PM


Re: This is my idea.
Hebrews 11:1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

As you say, evidence. There is always some evidence to convince the person. Faith cannot exist without evidence.

Basically the faithful say "x means y", never change their position and when asked why they never change their position they say "I have faith that x equals y".

It's like the faithful person's brain become feature locked.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 43 of 189 (631047)
08-30-2011 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
08-30-2011 3:47 AM


Re: This is my idea.
But 'feature locked' means that further evidence is ignored because the actor has faith that even if the new evidence is persuasive it will be wrong.

To paraphrase your good self "what I believe is true because I know it is". This blinding to new contradictory evidence is the very essence of faith.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 46 of 189 (631056)
08-30-2011 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by iano
08-30-2011 4:37 AM


Re: This is my idea.
That said, you do know that I permit that I could be a brain in a jar and that all my knowing is but the probing of a mad scientist.

Then you are open to new evidence that could redefine your belief and change what you know to be true.

That's not faith, that's a tentative conclusion.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 48 of 189 (631062)
08-30-2011 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by iano
08-30-2011 5:18 AM


Re: This is my idea.
For all practical purposes, I've reached a terminus and lines have now closed.

Are you open to evidence that would change your view that the lines should always remain open?

If the lines are now closed then your faith acts as an impediment to the acquisition of knowledge.

I'm open to new knowledge because my lines are not closed. It would be very hard to convince me that your god is real, but I would not reject evidence because I had faith he wa not real.

I could not claim to know anything in the way you know your god is real.

I would boil it down to a closed vs open mind.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 53 of 189 (631105)
08-30-2011 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Stile
08-30-2011 10:07 AM


Re: So Simple
In both scenarios we have two people coming into contact. An evil-doer hurting an innocent. One of them will leave the situation with a restriction on their free will. God decided to restrict the innocent's free will. I decided to restrict the evil-doer's free will. Who's got the moral high ground? Me for punishing an evil-doer who decided to do evil? Or God for punishing an innocent who's just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

I would like to sell my house on god's green Earth and buy some property on Stiles green Earth.

It seems a much nicer place to live.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 56 of 189 (631299)
08-31-2011 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by iano
08-30-2011 9:43 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
It would take a god to view it all and evaluate the relative worth of each item. It's not something you're able to do.

I disagree.

I declare a world were every one suffered as muc as I have in life is far better than the world we live in.

I'm healthy, educated, loved, happy and hopeful of a bright future. Never on e have I died of AIDs as a baby, been burnt to death, tortured, denied my rights to freedom or been drowned, crushed or electrocuted in a freak natural disaster.

If every one had a similar level of good in their life the world would be a lot better for evey one.

None of my 'free will' has been restricted.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 58 of 189 (631331)
08-31-2011 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by iano
08-31-2011 2:40 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
Straggler writes:

Why not just clip one side? Rather than create good and evil why not narrow the scale so that the only possibilities are indifference and escalating degrees of good?

Iano writes:

The old argument goes that you can't make someone love you. They have to be able to choose to love you. Or not.

Aside from this not addressing Straggler's point at all; why would you choose to love someone who makes the place you live in a total shit hole and if you are not greatfull you go to an even worse place?

Back on topic.

The essence of faith and belief is the denial of new data.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 61 of 189 (631446)
09-01-2011 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Jon
08-31-2011 9:20 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
So you mean to say that new evidence could over turn your belief in your god? How is that having faith?

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