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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 86 of 189 (743203)
11-28-2014 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Taq
11-26-2014 1:24 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
My own experience is that there is a difference in worldview. I can't speak for all atheists, but one of the major observations I have made is that atheists can make peace with the idea that the universe could care less about our existence. Ultimate, atheists are interested in what IS true, not what they HOPE is true.

Theists, on the other hand, seem to have a need that something out there does care about them. I would call that a very human reaction, not really a selfish one. In the end, I would define the essence of faith and belief as hope. The interesting bits come when that hope butts heads with facts.

The attempts unbelievers make to explain the motivations of believers are pretty bemusing to someone like me who was an atheist for about thirty years of my life, between the ages of fifteen and forty five. And before that I wasn't a very avid Christian, just went to church, believed in God in a vague sort of way, didn't understand the gospel. At fifteen I was among a bunch of teenagers who considered themselves sophisticated and enlightened, and we had a teacher who loved to debunk religion more than he loved to teach geometry, and the combination made an atheist of me. Because it seemed to be the truth, and truth was the important thing. I'd never had any idea that I needed God so I had no problem accepting that I was living in a world where such things were fairy tales and reality meant accepting a cold universe that didn't care about me. I really had no problem accepting that.

Thirty years later I was surrounded by a bunch of New Agers who were driving me crazy with their "irrational" views which I looked at as destructive of reality and truth. They considered me "too analytical" and unspiritual. But one day I was reading a book by a well known guru who wrote of personally experiencing "God" and that sent me on the trail of understanding who God is. It took a couple years of reading a lot of different religions until I ended up a Christian.

I didn't "need" it, but I was very happy to find it true. Yes, true. The whole point was that it's TRUE. And that's still the whole point to me. It's also beautiful, fulfilling, everything a person could have wanted. But I hadn't missed it all those years.

It can very well be the love of truth that makes a person a believer in Christ.

abe: You think science is the truth so you can't possibly appreciate what I'm saying. But once you know that the Biblical account is the truth, there are simply no other claims to truth that can compete. They're false whether it's possible to prove it or not. I feel sorry for people who grow up believers and never get it solidly established that it's the truth and lose it easily when confronted by "science," or by those sophisticated teenagers that persuaded me.

Abe: The evidence? The many witnesses and their trustworthiness. "Ears to hear." The coherence of the whole historical panorama from Eden through Revelation. No other religion has anything remotely like these evidences. "Ears to hear."

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Taq, posted 11-26-2014 1:24 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 11-28-2014 11:06 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 90 of 189 (743231)
11-28-2014 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
11-28-2014 11:06 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
No ears to hear I guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 11-28-2014 11:06 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 99 of 189 (743365)
11-30-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
11-30-2014 3:38 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Since I became a Christian most of my friends are Republicans and they are a very generous lot of people.

My solution to the problem of helping someone was always to get some food, maybe a sandwich and some fruit and a bottled drink, and sack it up and hand it to the guy sitting on the curb with a sign. I didn't know if he would use money to get drunk, I just figured if he was hungry it was better to give food than money. I might also include a note, or tell him how to get to the local mission where they'd feed him and put him up for a few days and counsel him toward getting work. Maybe my food was thrown away I don't know, but I have seen people rummaging through garbage cans so it probably did get eaten. A friend and I also made sandwiches and handed them out to people in the park, the sort of thing that city administrators object to now. Maybe it is sort of messy, there could be better ways of doing it.


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 Message 96 by Phat, posted 11-30-2014 3:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 189 (765853)
08-07-2015 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Omnivorous
08-06-2015 10:58 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Christian mission to an African nation finances businesses for poor people, such as selling things in the local market. Discovered that although the business is successful, brings in money, and the new entrepreneur faithfully minds the store, the money he makes goes to drinking and gambling and prostitutes and his wife and children are still living at starvation level. Mission concludes that there's a cultural mindset that has to change before it makes sense to throw money at the problem.

What do you think?


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 Message 120 by Omnivorous, posted 08-06-2015 10:58 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 1:28 AM Faith has responded
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 189 (765855)
08-07-2015 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by NoNukes
08-07-2015 1:28 AM


GollyRe: What Is Truth?
You really do think I'm ****** enough to make that sort of case, and that a Christian missionary organization would draw such a ****** conclusion? I guess so. It's really rather typical of you.

This was an example given to illustrate years of experience with this sort of thing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 1:28 AM NoNukes has responded

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 Message 128 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 2:48 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 130 of 189 (765904)
08-07-2015 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by NoNukes
08-07-2015 2:48 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
I don't understand your level of suspiciousness and I don't feel like indulging it. I no longer have the original source, it was one article among many in one email publication among many I receive, I didn't save it, it simply fit in with this discussion so I wrote what I remember of it. Trying to answer such a level of distrust and suspiciousness is too much to ask. Sorry I posted it at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 2:48 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 3:44 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 133 of 189 (765930)
08-07-2015 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by NoNukes
08-07-2015 3:44 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
So you justify your suspiciousness, so what else is new.

Surely we should be careful about giving to ALL who ask. Should we give money to people who use it to finance terrorism, or to organizations that abort babies?

By the way, aren't you the one who has so often said it isn't a good idea just to give money without knowing how it is going to be used or something like that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 3:44 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 11:14 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 135 of 189 (765937)
08-07-2015 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by NoNukes
08-07-2015 11:14 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Ridiculous questions nobody would ask because they are not relevant to the question of giving money.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2015 11:14 PM NoNukes has responded

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 139 of 189 (765998)
08-09-2015 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by ringo
08-08-2015 11:55 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
How would you go about promoting self-esteem and self-worth?

Money is certainly the wrong idea if that's your aim. Feeding hungry people is one thing, building self-esteem an entirely different project.

But it so happens I just recently read something about that too, that I'm not sure I could track down, one of those things that zipped through my email that I didn't keep. Something about an unbeliever, an atheist, a writer, a journalist or something like that, arguing that Christian missions do a lot of good in the world. Imagine that, given the sour view of us here at EvC. He said he'd witnessed such missions all over the world and had come to the conclusion that Christianity does a lot of good for people, such as building their self-esteem. Imagine that. Not just helping them with their survival issues but the gospel itself. This guy actually appreciated that the gospel teaches the worth of human beings and it has a big impact on people and their culture because of that effect. Imagine that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 137 by ringo, posted 08-08-2015 11:55 AM ringo has responded

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 146 of 189 (871921)
02-16-2020 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Tangle
02-16-2020 11:44 AM


Voices heard by mental patients
Aek of voluntary work in a mental hospital would remove any doubt you have about whether people's inner voices are real or imaginary.


Curious what you observed there, or think others observe, and how it removes all doubt about the reality of inner voices. I'm familiar with schizophrenics who hear voices that often tell them what to do, but I don't think it's clear at all whether they are real or not._ What makes you think it's so clear?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 11:44 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 12:05 PM Faith has responded
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 148 of 189 (871923)
02-16-2020 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Tangle
02-16-2020 12:05 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
I see. But isn't there a difference between the voices being real, meaning actual voices they actually hear, and the voices telling the truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 12:05 PM Tangle has responded

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 Message 149 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 12:29 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 151 of 189 (871926)
02-16-2020 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Tangle
02-16-2020 12:29 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
But of course I mean really real. Your answer to the question how you can be so sure they aren't real was their saying ridiculous untrue things, but that isn't evidence that they aren't really real voices.

Oh well, no need to drag this out I guess. I believe they are demons. I suppose you believe they are some kind of brain effect. I think they are demons doing their usual thing of misleading human beings. These crazy people are simply people who have accumulated (or perhaps inherited)_enough sins to allow the demons to operate in this way. We all have sins but not all of us have sinned to the point that demons are allowed to inhabit us and mislead us so directly.

Laugh away. Mock away. Call me bonkers again. What fun.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 12:29 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 12:51 PM Faith has responded
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 02-16-2020 2:32 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 153 of 189 (871935)
02-16-2020 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Tangle
02-16-2020 12:51 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
They can be quite real, meaning no delusion, but heard only within the head of the victim, not by anyone else.

I'm sure drugs could sometimes draw demons. It's one danger of the use of drugs.

gosh I guess those medieval people were onto something. Why do you assume it's progress to have given up an explanation that might have been/most likely was the correct one, based only on your own modernist prejudice? What we should be ashamed of is our modernist assumptions that have no basis in anything but the modernist prejudices.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 12:51 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 2:05 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 155 of 189 (871937)
02-16-2020 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Tangle
02-16-2020 2:05 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
There is no necessary contradiction between modern medicine and the reality of demons. I understand how rationalism concocted the dichotomy but it was an error.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 2:05 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 161 of 189 (871947)
02-16-2020 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
02-16-2020 2:32 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
The demons are immortal, yes around for thousands of years at least. Not sure when they were created. Possibly long before God created the physical universe but there's no hint of how long before if so. But in any case they've had the last six thousand or so years to get familiar with Planet Earth and the human race. And I don't think it's just that they know how our views have changed over the centures, I think they can be "credited" with influencing the direction our thoughts have taken, particularly the ideas that convince people like Tangle that demons don't exist. That's been a very useful idea for them, so that they get to operate incognito as it were. They get to be UFOs for instance and nobody ever suspects them, they think it's all some kind of physical reality, or ETs or whatnot -- those who believe in such things anyway. They've got the human race bamboozled from many directions, crafty creatures they are.

I never had the experience of seeing a demon-possessed person as you did but I have no doubt that is what you witnessed. [Correction: I had an apparition appear in my room one night of a "street person" who had threatened me that day as I passed him. He must have been possessed since his apparition appeared in my room and threatened to kill me. Not the same kind of experience you had of a Christian being possessed but still I'm sure this man was possessed and what I saw was the demon's impersonation in my room that night.]

But I also heard a voice that spoke only to me, twice. Once when I was a new Christian and was praying, which is similar to the timing you mention when you heard a voice. The voice I heard said "She is praying to Jesus Christ." Quite audible. And I was alone but I'm sure it couldn't have been heard by anyone else anyway. And it sounded like the "little chipmunks" and made me laugh out loud. I wonder why it didn't try to be more convincing. Just a low-ranking demon?

Another time I was praying and a voice gave the name of a person all the churches in town were praying for, she was such a well known Christian, and the word had gone through all the churches about how she had been diagnosed with cancer just before she was about to give birth to her fifth child, and nobody wants to see a mother taken away from her children. So we were all praying for her (she died anyway and it was a challenge to the faith of many) and I heard this voice like it was coming from the inside of a steel barrel, giving her name. It sounded so odd I nearly laughed out loud. Demons are smart but sometimes they give themselves away.

I got the "gift of tongues" when I was in a charismatic church, but some time later I recognized that it wasn't from God and gave it up.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 02-16-2020 2:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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