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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 189 (743333)
11-29-2014 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
11-29-2014 11:01 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
So yes, give him the money and let him decide what to do with it.

Ringo, have you spent any actual time working with the homeless community? In the time I have spent doing so, I frequently wrestle with whether my actions are helping vs. enabling.

The well meaning platitude you offer here is close to worthless when applied to the homeless people I know. Your beer/food money isn't going to offer a homeless person a way to improve his position beyond the next few hours.

How often have you helped a homeless person by giving him a beer?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 11-29-2014 11:01 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by petrophysics1, posted 11-30-2014 2:54 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 97 by petrophysics1, posted 11-30-2014 3:51 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 11-30-2014 1:42 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 189 (743402)
11-30-2014 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
11-30-2014 1:42 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
That's exactly my point: I don't know.

In other words you are pretending to have a point. You are advising that giving out beer money might help boost self-esteem, but you actually have no reason or experience to share with us about any results.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 11-30-2014 1:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 12-01-2014 11:21 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 102 of 189 (743403)
11-30-2014 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by petrophysics1
11-30-2014 3:51 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
I frequently wrestle with whether my actions are helping vs. enabling.

petrophysics writes:

So the "mark" has this psychological point of view.

How do we use this to get the greatest amount of work and money out of him without his knowing we are fucking him over

Actually that's not my point of view at all. Yes there are scammers of the type you describe out there, but that's not what I or anyone else means when they talk about "enabling". I'm not concerned about being taken. I'm more concerned about futility.

What I'm talking about specifically is whether giving a hungry addict/mental case homeless person food or money actually does anything more than advance his addiction.

In my experience, whether you give an addict food or money, you risk simply enable them to continue their self-destructive behavior. The homeless people I encountered in Northern VA, were primarily the stubbornly homeless, i.e. people with criminal backgrounds, mental health issues, some sex offenders, almost all with drug and alcohol problems. They are among the least employable people you are likely to encounter. You aren't going to give them ten bucks and a handful of bus tokens and expect them to have jobs at the end of the day.

For whatever reason that people find themselves living in the woods in the dead of winter, the way out isn't easy for most. Neither your pocket change or a Subway sandwich is going to change their lives one iota. Most people are better off donating their money to professionals who work in the area, or donating their money to organizations that are going to interact with them.

I've tried to get involved with organizations that do this kind of work. I've donated money, driven vans full of homeless people to the laundromat, taken them to church among other things. But I've only seen a couple of homeless folks actually get off the streets for an extended period of time other than by dying.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by petrophysics1, posted 11-30-2014 3:51 AM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 189 (743541)
12-02-2014 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
12-01-2014 11:21 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
I'm not "advising" anything; I'm pointing out why one approach might possibly have good results.

Ringo writes:

Giving him the dignity of making his own decision is in the same ballpark as giving him food. If he got a little respect from other people, he might find some respect for himself and turn his own life around. So yes, give him the money and let him decide what to do with it.

That 'pointing out' would be advising or something close enough to it. In my experience your 'advice' is nonsense.

And no, there is no way of following up on the results of every dollar I give away.

I didn't ask you to follow up on every dollar you give away. But you can follow up if you see the same people repeatedly over a period of time. Don't put words like 'every dollar' in my mouth when in actuality you've never followed up.

The do-gooder approach that you seem to advocate is fine too, as long as it isn't used to rationalize doing nothing.

'Do gooder approach?'. As for doing nothing, no I'm not advocating that either.

Edited by NoNukes, : add quote from Ringo's advice.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 12-01-2014 11:21 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 12-02-2014 11:27 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 189 (747639)
01-17-2015 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
12-02-2014 11:27 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
I don't see the same people repeatedly.

I do.

What... I'm... saying... is... I don't turn somebody down just because he might use the money to buy beer or drugs.

That's fine. Just don't make silly claims that you are helping when you do as you do. You've advanced a scenario where your trust in the person is going to elevate them somehow. I have direct experience that says it does not. And frankly there is no real evidence that you give a hoot since you don't make any effort to see the same people.

But it's your money and your conscience.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 12-02-2014 11:27 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 01-18-2015 1:19 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 189 (765854)
08-07-2015 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
08-07-2015 1:11 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Mission concludes that there's a cultural mindset that has to change before it makes sense to throw money at the problem.

Sure, because we can make such conclusions about everyone in Africa on the basis of a bad result in a population of one. Best to just leave the entire continent alone now.

Would Christians really so quickly reach the conclusion that an entire continent of people are beyond their means to help?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 1:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 1:51 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 189 (765898)
08-07-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
08-07-2015 1:51 AM


Re: GollyRe: What Is Truth?
This was an example given to illustrate years of experience with this sort of thing.

Perhaps you could have expressed something like that. If you had, I would have challenged you to provide some evidence that so few people had been helped as to make the endeavor not worthwhile.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 1:51 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 3:15 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 189 (765900)
08-07-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Omnivorous
08-06-2015 10:58 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Consider that the person most in need of help, by your rubric, will usually be the person appearing least deserving of it. The person most eligible for help is going to look a lot like you.

There is no reason to question the intent of people who behave as would ringo. Whatever the result of spontaneous giving, surely nobody intends to hurt the recipient. I've given money to panhandlers, although I do not do so routinely. On the other hand, I do give money and my time to homeless people in other situations.

What I am adamant about is that giving a panhandler pocket money in the hope that you will build up his self esteem and sense of self worth is a piss poor strategy.

It is harder to give money effectively, but it is possible. There is no reason to challenge the bona fides of people who give away amount of money similar to and perhaps even larger than the spontaneous gifts of pocket money that you can give when you encounter people face to face.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Omnivorous, posted 08-06-2015 10:58 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Omnivorous, posted 08-07-2015 4:14 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 08-08-2015 11:55 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 189 (765907)
08-07-2015 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
08-07-2015 3:15 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
I didn't save it, it simply fit in with this discussion so I wrote what I remember of it. Trying to answer such a level of distrust and suspiciousness is too much to ask. Sorry I posted it at all.

The problem here is not just a matter of evidence. The problem is that your conclusion is diametrically opposed to how Jesus has instructed us to act. And there is also the issue that Africa is very large and a huge amount of discussion is necessary before I conclude that an experiment applies to all of Africa or to an entire nation of Africa. So yes I am going to insist on details.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 3:15 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 9:10 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 189 (765935)
08-07-2015 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
08-07-2015 9:10 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Should we give money to people who use it to finance terrorism, or to organizations that abort babies?

Faith, you should do what you will with your money. But you are asking questions that are not even relevant to the discussion. If you want to bring it closer to the topic, you might ask whether you should make sure that a mother has never had an abortion or divorce before you give her money. I doubt that it would occur to most of us to ask such a question.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 9:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 11:37 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 189 (765939)
08-08-2015 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
08-07-2015 11:37 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Ridiculous questions nobody would ask because they are not relevant to the question of giving money.

Exactly the point of my example.

Let's make this the last time I respond to one of your posts. I believe you'll be a lot happier.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 08-07-2015 11:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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