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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 85 of 189 (743199)
11-28-2014 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
11-28-2014 1:18 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
Phat writes:


So would you say that theists are interested in hope and seek faith whereas atheists are interested in reality and seek evidence?(by and large)

One day perhaps people will realise that atheists aren't another species - all they are are people that don't believe that there is a god. The vast majority give it no more thought than than why they don't believe in dragons and have hopes just like everyone else - just not silly ones like an afterlife.

The best I can say about this is that you're confusing a working scientist with an atheist.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 11-28-2014 1:18 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 11-28-2014 10:13 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 88 of 189 (743210)
11-28-2014 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
11-28-2014 10:13 AM


Re: Peculiar people from another planet?
Phat writes:

How would one know that another is an atheist?

You know, in most countries I've visited it's not a thing that ever crops up or ever crosses anybody's mind. It's only when I go to the US or Asia that religion becomes noticeable. The answer to your question is that you can't unless you ask and nobody asks because it's of no consequence.

If they were sharing love and compassion for others, the issue may well never come up...unless a Christian insisted that the person pray with him or whatever.

Phat, dear chap, an atheist in as likely to show love and compassion or not show love and compassion as a believer - they are exactly the same in all respects except they don't go to church on Sunday and don't obsess about sin or worry about the world ending.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 11-28-2014 10:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 145 of 189 (871920)
02-16-2020 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
02-16-2020 10:26 AM


Re: Necessity of a Deity
I suppose you have to discover these things for yourself, but it's frustrating to watch you do it. People are very good at talking themselves into their beliefs- especially when they can get reinforced by others.

Aek of voluntary work in a mental hospital would remove any doubt you have about whether people's inner voices are real or imaginary.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 02-16-2020 10:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 11:52 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 147 of 189 (871922)
02-16-2020 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
02-16-2020 11:52 AM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Faith writes:

Curious what you observed there, or think others observe, and how it removes all doubt about the reality of inner voices. I'm familiar with schizophrenics who hear voices that often tell them what to do, but I don't think it's clear at all whether they are real or not._ What makes you think it's so clear?


I've met and spoken to two people on the same ward that were utterly convinced that they were Napoleon. And another was Jesus Christ.

In what way could they be real?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 11:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 12:15 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 149 of 189 (871924)
02-16-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
02-16-2020 12:15 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Faith writes:

I see. But isn't there a difference between the voices being real, meaning actual voices they actually hear, and the voices telling the truth?


I can't make much sense of that question.

The voices are very real to them, but of course the voices can not be telling the truth because they are not Napoleon.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 12:15 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 12:38 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 152 of 189 (871927)
02-16-2020 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
02-16-2020 12:38 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Faith writes:

But of course I mean really real. Your answer to the question how you can be so sure they aren't real was their saying ridiculous untrue things, but that isn't evidence that they aren't really real voices.


They are very real to the individual. To everyone else they're plainly a delusion.

Oh well, no need to drag this out I guess. I believe they are demons. I suppose you believe they are some kind of brain effect.


We KNOW that they are a brain effect. We use drugs to create the same effects.

I think they are demons doing their usual thing of misleading human beings. These crazy people are simply people who have accumulated (or perhaps inherited)_enough sins to allow the demons to operate in this way. We all have sins but not all of us have sinned to the point that demons are allowed to inhabit us and mislead us so directly.


Yeh, well, it was common in mediaeval days to accuse the mentally ill of being possessed by devils. You're just out of your time.

Laugh away. Mock away. Call me bonkers again. What fun.


It's not funny, it's very sad. I'm ashamed that society can still be so backward and ignorant.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 12:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 1:54 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 154 of 189 (871936)
02-16-2020 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
02-16-2020 1:54 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Faith writes:

They can be quite real, meaning no delusion, but heard only within the head of the victim, not anyone else.


3rd time - they are real to the individual, to everyone else they are delusional. In what sense can someone saying they are Napoleon be real?

I'm sure drugs could sometimes draw demons. It's one danger of the use of drugs.


Drugs alter brain state. Fact. Reproducible, proven fact. Nothing to do with demons - whatever they are.

Why do you assume it's progress to have given up an explanation that might have been/most likely was the correct one, based only on your own modernist prejudice?


Because I've got an iPad and their beliefs have been proven wrong.

What we should be ashamed of is our modernist assumptions that have no basis in anything but the modernist prejudices.


Modern ideas about our reality are based on testable evidence, that's why we know what works and what doesn't. Without our 'modern assumptions you would probably have died of toothache at the age of three and you mother would have died in childbirth.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 1:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 2:11 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 02-16-2020 2:36 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 156 of 189 (871940)
02-16-2020 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Faith
02-16-2020 2:11 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Faith writes:

There is no necessary contradiction between modern medicine and the reality of demons.


Do antibiotics cure demon possession too?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 2:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 160 of 189 (871946)
02-16-2020 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Phat
02-16-2020 2:36 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Phat writes:

As to my personal experience of hearing voices, the one time I heard an audible voice I was by myself, but the other time when I heard a chorus of voices there were two other friends with me who clearly heard the same thing. What theory would explain that?


You told us that you heard these voices after several days of evangelical study and you also tell us that you smoked a lot of weed. You've listened to the podcasts that explains how people 'hear' things with training and the pot is self-explanatory.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 02-16-2020 2:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 02-16-2020 2:55 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 164 of 189 (871950)
02-16-2020 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
02-16-2020 2:55 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Phat writes:

Except that this happened a year or so after i "got saved" and that I was under the influence of no mind-altering substance except arguably the groupthink itself. Still, we clearly did hear and experience something together. It was at my house and not at the church.


My memory of what you said was that you'd all had several days of evangelical stuff and were praying?

To this day, were you to ask any of us what we experienced our stories would likely match.


Sure, it seems real. That's why you believe it. That's what delusions are.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 02-16-2020 2:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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