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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 189 (765939)
08-08-2015 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
08-07-2015 11:37 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
Ridiculous questions nobody would ask because they are not relevant to the question of giving money.

Exactly the point of my example.

Let's make this the last time I respond to one of your posts. I believe you'll be a lot happier.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


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ringo
Member
Posts: 18532
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 137 of 189 (765981)
08-08-2015 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by NoNukes
08-07-2015 2:55 PM


Re: What Is Truth?
NoNukes writes:

What I am adamant about is that giving a panhandler pocket money in the hope that you will build up his self esteem and sense of self worth is a piss poor strategy.


How would you go about promoting self-esteem and self-worth?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 139 by Faith, posted 08-09-2015 4:02 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14304
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 138 of 189 (765997)
08-09-2015 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by ringo
08-08-2015 11:55 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
I'd try and get him/her a job, for starters. If they were hungry I would feed them. Giving money is not always the best option.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 139 of 189 (765998)
08-09-2015 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by ringo
08-08-2015 11:55 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
How would you go about promoting self-esteem and self-worth?

Money is certainly the wrong idea if that's your aim. Feeding hungry people is one thing, building self-esteem an entirely different project.

But it so happens I just recently read something about that too, that I'm not sure I could track down, one of those things that zipped through my email that I didn't keep. Something about an unbeliever, an atheist, a writer, a journalist or something like that, arguing that Christian missions do a lot of good in the world. Imagine that, given the sour view of us here at EvC. He said he'd witnessed such missions all over the world and had come to the conclusion that Christianity does a lot of good for people, such as building their self-esteem. Imagine that. Not just helping them with their survival issues but the gospel itself. This guy actually appreciated that the gospel teaches the worth of human beings and it has a big impact on people and their culture because of that effect. Imagine that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 18532
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 140 of 189 (766000)
08-09-2015 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Phat
08-09-2015 1:37 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Phat writes:

I'd try and get him/her a job, for starters. If they were hungry I would feed them.


DO you, though? How many people have asked you for spare change and how many have you found jobs for? How many have you fed?

Phat writes:

Giving money is not always the best option.


It is, however, a blanket option. You always have spare change (at least I always carry loonies and toonies so I WILL have spare change).

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ringo
Member
Posts: 18532
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 141 of 189 (766001)
08-09-2015 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
08-09-2015 4:02 AM


Re: What Is Truth?
Faith writes:

Feeding hungry people is one thing, building self-esteem an entirely different project.


I agree. Building self-esteem is a start toward teaching the man how to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 14304
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 189 (871908)
02-16-2020 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
11-17-2011 9:43 AM


Revisiting Fosters.
The reason that I brought back this old topic is that I remember when jar used to tell me that God, as I described Him, was akin to one of Foster's Imaginary Friends. I recently heard this podcast from the HIDDEN BRAIN on NPR.
Transcript

I recommend a listen. Here are some of the snippets I took from the transcript:

Secret Friends: Tapping Into The Power Of Imagination
quote:
VEDANTAMThe Host) This week on HIDDEN BRAIN - the thin line between the imaginary and the real(...)
Psychologists sometimes refer to such emotional connections as parasocial relationships, one-way relationships. In some ways, they are akin to the imaginary friends that children have. As we grow up, we're told to set such relationships aside, to tuck our stuffed animals away in a closet. Clinging to imaginary companions can suggest that you are lonely or maladjusted. But what if there is more to these relationships than we realize? (...)
VEDANTAM: The voices we hear, the secret friends we have, they often don't seem like mere extensions of ourselves. Megan said Cher seemed to be braver than she was, wiser than she was. The Cher in Megan's head knew things that Megan didn't know. How is this possible? How can one part of the mind know something that another part of the same mind does not know?

When we come back, we explore this question in another domain. We look at people who hear not the voice of a singer or a celebrity but the voice of something much bigger.

TANYA LUHRMANN: I mean, fundamentally, the story of God is a story about the human imagination. The human capacity to take seriously the sense that the world that we see before us is not all there is of the world. (...) The world felt as if it was becoming more connected. It felt like I was having these synchronicities. Things would - you know, I'd walk to the greengrocer. And the greengrocer would say something that I had been thinking about. And so I would have these experiences. And then over the course of the year, you know, I really saw myself change, felt myself change.

VEDANTAM: When I spoke to her, Tanya thought back to another moment when the line between the real and the imaginary became blurred - it was early during her field research, and she was on a train to meet Gareth Knight for the first time. She was reading a book about magic and mysticism. It was called "Experience Of The Inner Worlds."

LUHRMANN: And it was about the experience of power and this idea of a power outside of me that was present and kind of there in the world. It was kind of new to me.

VEDANTAM: The book was esoteric and complex. And she strained her mind to understand it.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

UNIDENTIFIED NARRATOR: On the cabalistic Tree of Life framework, we see a method of theosophical classification that's able to take in the concept of both creator and the creation. This is not so evident...

LUHRMANN: And he was talking about Tibetan this and cabalistic that and white light that. And I remember kind of just trying to understand the sentences and concentrating so hard. And there are people around me talking. And I was trying to really focus on the book.
VEDANTAM: Right then, she started to feel hot.

LUHRMANN: I began to feel power, like an electrical charge that seemed to move through me starting above me and moving through my body and going into the floor. And it was strong. And it was vivid. And I felt fantastic. I felt more alive. I felt completely alert, seeing - like, all of my senses were incredibly sharp.
LUHRMANN: And as I was feeling this way and trying to figure out what on Earth was going on, I looked over, and there were wisps of smoke coming out of my bag.

VEDANTAM: A battery-powered bike lamp she had stored in her bag was melting.(...) Now, there are two ways to think of this. You can say Tanya's thoughts about power melted the battery. Or you can say, huh, interesting coincidence. But the point is if you put yourself in a frame of mind where you expect unusual things to happen, you're more likely to see unusual things happen. The time she spent with Gareth and the others taught Tanya something very important about the imagination. It's a skill. You can improve it, make it sharper. You can practice it. And when you do, remarkable things follow.

LUHRMANN: There are all kinds of things that people experience. But what I can say is that the more time you spend doing what I would call inner sense cultivation, the more likely you are to report these events, that people have these moments in which, in effect, what they're imagining breaks forth into the world.

VEDANTAM: As she did more research, Tanya realized there was a profound disconnect in the way people think about the imagination today and the way they used to think about it in earlier times.

LUHRMANN: I think the emphasis on the imagination as something that is obviously not material emerges with the secular world, with a sense that there - that what is real is the stuff that we walk on and the things that we see that everybody else can see. And that what is other is not that real stuff.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

VEDANTAM: Tanya went on to become a professor of anthropology at Stanford University. In 2002, she began some new fieldwork focused on another group of people - evangelical Christians who wanted to develop an intense personal relationship with God. They were practicing what she calls inner sense cultivation.

LUHRMANN: And I was interviewing some young, blonde Southern Californian who's kind of like - her hair would swing back and forth. She looked like she belonged at the beach. And I was asking her all these pedantic questions, and at one point, she said, you know, if you want to understand God, just have a cup of coffee with him.

VEDANTAM: Other people told her similar things. The way to make an abstract, invisible entity real in your life was to do things with that entity that you would do with a spouse or a co-worker.

LUHRMANN: But, I mean, what people would say is that you needed to get to know God the way you would get to know somebody when you went out for coffee with them. You became a friend of the person. You asked about their life; they asked about your life. You had a back-and-forth. You learn to know each other. You learn to trust each other. And that that's how you should get to know God.
VEDANTAM: Tanya met people who said they had practiced these techniques so often that they could interact with God as if God was a living, breathing person. Ever the skeptical scientist, Tanya decided to see if the things she was hearing from evangelical Christians were reproducible in a scientific experiment. She randomly assigned some Christians to practice prayer that involved imagining a very intense personal relationship with God.

She had them read a story from the Bible in which Jesus was represented in different forms - for example, as a baby, a shepherd or on the cross. Then she asked subjects to interact with Jesus in their minds using all of their senses - sight, sound, smell, touch. Here's an example of one set of instructions related to the Bible's 23rd psalm, which says, the Lord is my shepherd.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: (Reading) See the shepherd before you. See his face, his eyes, the light that streams from him. He turns to walk, and you follow him. Notice his gait. See the heel over which he leads you. Feel the breeze over the grass. Smell its sweetness. Listen to the birds as they sing. Notice what you feel as you followed the shepherd.

VEDANTAM: Tanya invited the volunteers back after a month. She asked them what had happened in their minds in the intervening weeks. People in the imaginative prayer group responded very differently than people in the control group.

LUHRMANN: So I found that people in the prayer group were more likely to say that their mental images were vivid. They were more likely to say that God felt more like a person to them, that they were more likely to have gotten angry at God or become playful with God. They were also more likely to say they'd had a moment, when they had heard God speak in a way they could hear with their ears, or they had seen something that wasn't materially real in the world, or they'd had some vivid sense of God's presence.

They were more likely to say that they'd had an experience as if what had to be experienced in the mind had somehow broken free, and it was experienced with the senses, as if it sort of jumped out side of the mind-world barrier and was felt by them in the world.

VEDANTAM: As people consciously exercised their imaginations, their imaginations stopped feeling like imagination.

LUHRMANN: I would ask people whether God was like an imaginary friend, and people would always correct me. People would say, oh, no, he's not imaginary. Then they'd talk about him as if he was kind of like an invisible being who walked by their side and who, you know, put his arm around their shoulders. People would tell me about sitting next to God on a park bench, and they were talking to him about their life, and they were asking him about his life. And people - they did that.(...) People would, in effect, take bits and pieces of the best parts of their relationships with other people and they'd kind of weave them together so that in this what you might almost call play therapy, they are interacting with these different parts of God and then kind of changing their understanding of God and then talking about God. And so they're always working on their God concept.
VEDANTAM: What does it look and sound like to work on your God concept? How do believers distinguish the voice of God from their own hopes and dreams and desires? And what lessons can these imaginings hold for all people, religious and nonreligious? When we come back, we go to California to meet one of the evangelical Christians at the church where Tanya did her fieldwork. We find out how he trains himself to hear the voice of God.
It's a beautiful morning in Palo Alto, but then again, it's always a beautiful morning in Palo Alto. Alex Van Riesen shakes my hand and tells me I remind him of Jennifer Aniston. He doesn't know either of us, but it feels like he does.
ALEX VAN RIESEN: I found it ironic that you're doing an episode on people that you think you know but you don't know, and I realize I'm living that experience this morning by meeting you, Shankar.
VEDANTAM: (Laughter).We're meeting at the offices of the Vineyard Church in Palo Alto. Alex used to be a pastor at the church and is now a member. Before we head inside, he pulls from the trunk of his car a black metal box. It has silver hatches and a combination lock. Alex is a big guy, but he strains as he carries the box into the office. He puts it down at his feet and pops the locks. Inside are about 30 carefully numbered, large notebooks.
VAN RIESEN: Sort of narrow-ruled. They're like the notebooks you take notes in almost in a science class. They're very narrow because I write small. And so I have all the journals that I've ever had since 1984.
VEDANTAM: Alex tells me that whenever he's worried or angry or wants to figure out something in his life, he takes out a notebook and asks God - more specifically, Jesus - for guidance. It's what he did after he became lead pastor and was feeling overwhelmed. In small, neat handwriting, Alex carries out a dialogue, a question-and-answer session in which he takes on the role of both himself and Jesus. It's one part therapy, one part prayer. He starts with his own side of the conversation.

VAN RIESEN: I had a hard time getting up this morning. I wanted to stay in bed. I think I was just starting to feel comfortable in this role as the lead pastor of the church. I feel stirred up, anxious, worried. Jesus asks me, what's another time you felt like this? And I say, well, I'm noting that I've not felt like this for a while. I have moments, but in general, my life is pretty solid. That gave me hope that things were really changing for me. Then hearing this news and getting all stirred up internally makes me wonder whether I'm growing at all. Jesus says, I'm at work in you, and I'm bringing transformation. You know that I'm about changing people...

VEDANTAM: I have so many questions. Is Alex imagining what Jesus would say, what he thinks he would say? Is he actually hearing a literal voice talking in his ear? Alex says it's not like he just flips a switch and Jesus comes up on his internal radio station. It's a conscious mental practice that has deepened over the years. It's like he imagines what a wise therapist would say, and then he says it to himself.

VAN RIESEN: It's similar. I mean, I even - as I'm reading this - and I haven't read this for a while - some of the questions sound like things like, you know, how do you feel about that? A lot of them are questions that Jesus asked me to go deeper with what I'm feeling.

VEDANTAM: But he says there are things that Jesus can tell him that a therapist never could.

VAN RIESEN: He can make promises - promises like, I'm with you, like, when you feel alone or you feel really trapped. I think that there's promises like, I have a place for you when you're making a decision and you feel really torn, and you don't know which way to decide. And he goes, I will help you.

VEDANTAM: Alex says he was first brought to this way of thinking by a dramatic moment of personal connection with Jesus.

VAN RIESEN: And I was in this worship hall - probably, like, two or three thousand people at this event. And all of a sudden, I felt a hand on my shoulder. But I didn't look around. We were in the midst of worship. And then very close to my ear, I heard a voice whisper into my ear things that I had never told anyone.

VEDANTAM: It was a voice, a literal male voice. The voice seemed to know of mean and hurtful things that Alex had done to other people.

VAN RIESEN: I was like, how could somebody know these things? I think he also mentioned that - I know that your life has been hard. I know it pains you that your mother died at childbirth, that your - you didn't have a close relationship with your biological siblings. And he said, I know these things, and I love you. And I'm with you. And so the minute he stopped speaking, I turned around, and there was no one there.
There is lots more, but I recommend listening to the podcast or reading the full transcript.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14304
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 143 of 189 (871913)
02-16-2020 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
08-28-2011 12:46 PM


Re: Necessity of a Deity
After listening to the HIDDEN BRAIN podcast, I finally am beginning to see your point after all these years.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 12:46 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 02-16-2020 10:34 AM Phat has responded
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 11:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32731
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 144 of 189 (871914)
02-16-2020 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
02-16-2020 10:26 AM


Re: Necessity of a Deity
Remember, there was a lot to be learned at Fosters.

Myths have power.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 02-16-2020 10:26 AM Phat has responded

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7809
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 145 of 189 (871920)
02-16-2020 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
02-16-2020 10:26 AM


Re: Necessity of a Deity
I suppose you have to discover these things for yourself, but it's frustrating to watch you do it. People are very good at talking themselves into their beliefs- especially when they can get reinforced by others.

Aek of voluntary work in a mental hospital would remove any doubt you have about whether people's inner voices are real or imaginary.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 02-16-2020 10:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 146 of 189 (871921)
02-16-2020 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Tangle
02-16-2020 11:44 AM


Voices heard by mental patients
Aek of voluntary work in a mental hospital would remove any doubt you have about whether people's inner voices are real or imaginary.


Curious what you observed there, or think others observe, and how it removes all doubt about the reality of inner voices. I'm familiar with schizophrenics who hear voices that often tell them what to do, but I don't think it's clear at all whether they are real or not._ What makes you think it's so clear?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 11:44 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 12:05 PM Faith has responded
 Message 150 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-16-2020 12:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7809
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 147 of 189 (871922)
02-16-2020 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
02-16-2020 11:52 AM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Faith writes:

Curious what you observed there, or think others observe, and how it removes all doubt about the reality of inner voices. I'm familiar with schizophrenics who hear voices that often tell them what to do, but I don't think it's clear at all whether they are real or not._ What makes you think it's so clear?


I've met and spoken to two people on the same ward that were utterly convinced that they were Napoleon. And another was Jesus Christ.

In what way could they be real?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 11:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 12:15 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 148 of 189 (871923)
02-16-2020 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Tangle
02-16-2020 12:05 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
I see. But isn't there a difference between the voices being real, meaning actual voices they actually hear, and the voices telling the truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 12:05 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2020 12:29 PM Faith has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7809
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 149 of 189 (871924)
02-16-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
02-16-2020 12:15 PM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Faith writes:

I see. But isn't there a difference between the voices being real, meaning actual voices they actually hear, and the voices telling the truth?


I can't make much sense of that question.

The voices are very real to them, but of course the voices can not be telling the truth because they are not Napoleon.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 12:15 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 12:38 PM Tangle has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6060
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 150 of 189 (871925)
02-16-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
02-16-2020 11:52 AM


Re: Voices heard by mental patients
Curious what you observed there, or think others observe, and how it removes all doubt about the reality of inner voices. I'm familiar with schizophrenics who hear voices that often tell them what to do, but I don't think it's clear at all whether they are real or not._ What makes you think it's so clear?


Schizophrenics are literally hearing voices. The part of the brain that activates for literal sounds being made also lights up in the brains of schizophrenics. Their brain is actually perceiving literal sound, albeit no sound has actually been emitted in reality. So to the schizophrenic, the voices are real because their brain cannot distinguish between a real voice and one they have imagined.

Most people, when they speak of God communicating to them, describe a quiet, still voice in their mind. Think of you verbalizing these words as you are reading them -- as if you were actually vocalizing the words. Based on your experiences, you are imagining yourself narrating the words in your mind. This is what most people talk about with a godly experience. This is completely different in schizophrenia where they are interpreting literal voices. All of the people that I have ever heard explaining their experience with auditory hallucinations are troubled by them...

As to biblical descriptions of God speaking to people, Acts of course details Paul on the road to Damascus. He has two riders with him. In the book of Acts there are two separate verses recounting the same story. In one verse it says the riders HEARD the voice but did not see Jesus. In the other part of the same book it says the riders accompanying Paul SAW the vision but did not hear the voice. First of all, that's deeply problematic if you are literalist and an inerrantist because that's an unmistakable, unavoidably clear contradiction.

I am not sure if there is anywhere else in the bible that describes a literal AUDITORY speaking of God -- a booming voice emanating from above. Everywhere its more closely described as, well, you thinking about what a voice would sound like in your mind. Those are distinguishing features if you ask me. So what is your interpretation in light of that?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 11:52 AM Faith has not yet responded

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 Message 157 by Phat, posted 02-16-2020 2:23 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
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