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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 61 of 141 (631446)
09-01-2011 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Jon
08-31-2011 9:20 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
So you mean to say that new evidence could over turn your belief in your god? How is that having faith?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Jon, posted 08-31-2011 9:20 PM Jon has not yet responded

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 62 of 141 (631461)
09-01-2011 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by iano
08-31-2011 2:40 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
Stragler writes:

Rather than create good and evil why not narrow the scale so that the only possibilities are indifference and escalating degrees of good? You still get freewill but you don't get evil. The worst someone can be is indifferent.

iano writes:

I wouldn't call a will that is denied half the available options a free one.

It is only half the available options because God has apparently chosen to calibrate the scale such that evil exists. Presumably he could have created a scale which includes far worse than evil (lets call it evil++) but he chose to limit our freedom to just evil. I am simply suggesting that he should have calibrated his scale so as to make evil unnecessary for freewill.

We can only conclude that rather than just testing whether we will choose to be good or not God actually wants us to be able to be evil. It isn't logically necessary for freewill. So why does evil exist?

iano writes:

The old argument goes that you can't make someone love you. They have to be able to choose to love you. Or not.

This isn't affected by removing evil so that the worst humans could be capable of is indifference.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 63 of 141 (631464)
09-01-2011 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Straggler
09-01-2011 6:20 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
Presumably he could have created a scale which includes far worse than evil (lets call it evil++)

Quite so.

I'm livid that I can't assault and cause permanent damage to someone's soul or make it so they can't get into heaven.

*Shakes fist at sky* Damn you god, for making me this way!


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Panda
Member (Idle past 1786 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 64 of 141 (631487)
09-01-2011 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Larni
09-01-2011 6:42 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
Larni writes:

I'm livid that I can't assault and cause permanent damage to someone's soul or make it so they can't get into heaven.


Me too.

I also can't turn into a dolphin.
This is because I lack that ability.
Does that also mean I lack some aspect of freewill?

If No:
If I lacked the ability to commit evil then I would have just as much freewill as I currently have.

If Yes:
Considering how many billions of things I am unable to do - being unable to commit evil would make very little difference to my freewill quota.


Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR

Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.


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 Message 63 by Larni, posted 09-01-2011 6:42 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 141 (631493)
09-01-2011 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Larni
09-01-2011 3:20 AM


Faith and honesty
There is faith, but there is also honesty. When new evidence is presented it must be considered.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Larni, posted 09-01-2011 3:20 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1773
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 66 of 141 (631498)
09-01-2011 10:30 AM


The essence of faith is desire. We do not have faith in things that we do not wish were so.
  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 67 of 141 (641158)
11-17-2011 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Larni
08-29-2011 11:59 AM


Imaginary Friends versus Necessary Gods
Larni writes:

As an aside the psychologist in me does wonder about the need for certainty biblical literalists seem to have about the nature of their god.

Had I never been taught anything at all about what the Bible said, and was simply introduced to God by way of definition...

Websters writes:

god \"gd, "gd\ n 1 cap : the supreme reality; esp : the Being worshiped as the creator and ruler of the universe 2 : a being or object believed to have supernatural attributes and powers and to require worship 3 : a person or thing of supreme value

I wouldnt need or require certainty since the concept of personal relationship was never brought up.

Now, I believe that a personal relationship is necessary even if difficult to obtain. Certainty is also important.

jar writes:

You said "A Deity, as conceived in the minds of Men," so the answer to all your questions is the the deity will be exactly as you imagine that deity to be, and live at Foster's.

Fosters Home For Imaginary Friends

Why admit to such a belief as that my Deity is an imaginary friend? I simply must will Him to be real!Otherwise, I will have been taught to find the ultimate question rather than the ultimate answer.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by dan4reason, posted 12-12-2011 9:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dan4reason
Junior Member (Idle past 2216 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-03-2010


Message 68 of 141 (643911)
12-12-2011 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
11-17-2011 9:43 AM


Re: Imaginary Friends versus Necessary Gods
There is no evidence for God so no reason to believe in him.
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 Message 67 by Phat, posted 11-17-2011 9:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
granpa
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 69 of 141 (644288)
12-16-2011 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-23-2011 12:35 PM


I only want to point out that its entirely possible to know that something must be true yet still lack faith in it..
therefore 'faith' by itself is not always irrational or opposed to critical thinking.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 08-23-2011 12:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 70 of 141 (733603)
07-19-2014 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Stile
08-29-2011 2:22 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
Stile writes:

the good that exists in this world doesn't balance out the evil. The evil that exists grossly out proportions the good. If this is the way the world must be... any capable worthy or just judge would not create this world in the first place.

Do we humans have the ability to judge the Judge? What defines what is capable?

The Deity may well tell us that we are incapable of seeing the big picture and thus are wrong in judging Him.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 08-29-2011 2:22 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 12:08 PM Phat has responded
 Message 74 by Stile, posted 07-21-2014 9:20 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16223
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 71 of 141 (733616)
07-19-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
07-19-2014 9:43 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
Phat writes:

Do we humans have the ability to judge the Judge?


Who appointed Him Judge?

Edited by zombie ringo, : Spellllling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-19-2014 9:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 72 of 141 (733646)
07-19-2014 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
07-19-2014 12:08 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
Who appointed Him Judge?
And this gets us to one of the oldest sub topics in human history---leadership. Humans elect leaders. We also choose our presidents, congress, and senators. Often, the choices we make are far from perfect.

Look at Vladimir Putin, for example. Look at George W.Bush. Ronald Reagan. Some criticize Obama. Thus...on a human level, choices are made by majority vote.

In a sense, I would argue that the same applies in the Spirit realm. God initially was autocratic due to Him having created everything seen and unseen. He then allowed for the possibility of evil....some would argue that He is thus responsible...which is true in a sense in that He is the Creator yet is also untrue in the sense that He never directly made angels nor later humans choose Him and only Him. Lucifer chose to establish his own abode...take on his own free will...and the inevitable consequences followed. Is this unfair? Critics may defend Lucifer as being forced into a no-win situation. Either submit or be banished. Lucifer could well cry out that "who made God in charge!" Humans later were given the knowledge of choice....good and evil. Now, we can well cry out that there is no law making God in charge. And yes, being the Creator of all things seen and unseen does give you veto power---as an omnipotent Deity. But so what? You seem to want your cake and eat it too. You seem to want free will and abolishment of all omnipotence. You seem to want a level playing ground...much as satan may have wanted....that establishes no authority save our own. Why you reject the whole "might makes right" paradigm is beyond me. Perhaps you mistrust the Creator. Perhaps you want to vote the autocrat out of office and establish some sort of spiritual democracy. My response to that is that it is not the Deity that cannot be trusted. It is the people at large. Look at human history. Did God cause any wars? Did God kill six million Jews? Did God carry out genocide against native americans? No. Humans did. Humans are their own worst enemy. Thus...as to the question of who put God in charge? I would answer by saying that God put us in charge and we have failed miserably. Hence, some believe that Jesus will return to finalize the problem of free will. You can cast your dissenting vote when this happens.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 12:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 3:46 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16223
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 73 of 141 (733648)
07-19-2014 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
07-19-2014 3:26 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
Phat writes:

... no authority save our own.


Not at all. I stand for collective authority. To paraphrase Thomas Paine, the people are better off being governed by themselves instead of by some distant despot.

Phat writes:

Perhaps you mistrust the Creator.


I certainly distrust His self-proclaimed messengers. How many times do we have to go through this? The people who claim to be "in communion" with God are a bunch of yahoos that I wouldn't trust with my lawnmower, much less life-and-death decisions.

Phat writes:

Did God cause any wars?


His representatives did, in His name. Why should I believe them when they say He is good and Satan is evil?

Phat writes:

Humans are their own worst enemy.


Not if your God is real.

Phat writes:

Thus...as to the question of who put God in charge? I would answer by saying that God put us in charge and we have failed miserably.


The question was: Who put God in charge of putting anybody in charge? Who put Him in charge of judging our failures?

Lee Harvey Oswald was a self-appointed judge, jury and executioner too. It's not always a good idea.

Edited by zombie ringo, : Spellig.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 07-19-2014 3:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 10-29-2014 2:28 AM ringo has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3392
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 74 of 141 (733788)
07-21-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
07-19-2014 9:43 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
Stile writes:

the good that exists in this world doesn't balance out the evil. The evil that exists grossly out proportions the good. If this is the way the world must be... any capable worthy or just judge would not create this world in the first place.

Phat writes:

Do we humans have the ability to judge the Judge?

Why does this matter? I didn't mention a Judge, and this statement of fact doesn't require me to judge a Judge one way or another.
But, of course, you need to show that a Judge actually exists before you question what we're doing with one...

Phat writes:

What defines what is capable?

Reality.

The Deity may well tell us that we are incapable of seeing the big picture and thus are wrong in judging Him.

Sure.
Or, the Deity may well agree with us and is proud that we've figured out the system and are attempting to fix it on our own.
Or, the Deity doesn't exist and musing about it is just a waste of time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-19-2014 9:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 75 of 141 (733791)
07-21-2014 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Stile
07-21-2014 9:20 AM


Re: This is not my idea.
One thing I like about your posts,Stile...is that you always think critically and list multiple options...different ways to approach a given situation!

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Stile, posted 07-21-2014 9:20 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
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